The defense has been playing well

[Idgit]

They were supposed to do more before the entire front 7 fell apart before this offseason.

Seattle and SF managed to build both of their Oline and front 7 at the same time basically from scratch within a relatively short time frame. Yet it is somehow impossible for this team? And people pointing that out are "whining"

BTW Mincey and TMcClain and even to an extent Melton given that he is coming off a major injury and RMcClain who is a headcase are the exact dumpster diving tactics we used for years to fix the Oline before we finally gave in and started throwing #1 picks at it. This is what happens when you have very little to show for your drafting in later rounds, when you are constantly trading up for pet cats and losing draft picks, and when you give major FA money to players with marginal impact like Carr. Not to mention switching defensive schemes and coordinators with no real plan so that half your roster was drafted to play in an entirely different scheme than the one du jour.

But that's just my 'agenda', don't mind me.

Hindsight's 20/20, and any poster can switch gears to complain about whatever the under-talented or under-performing unit of the day is. What I recall is several of us more concerned about bringing in adequate DL depth back when we could have been doing more about it while the vast majority of the throng was wanting to spend first round picks at positions that could have been addressed in the third round or lower. Or wanting to give out $10M AAV contracts at positions where those deals were 20% above market for those players.

If you want to play the game where you just complain about whatever's not great and call that 'realism,' be my guest. For my part, though, I'm more impressed with people who call out what needs to be done before it's overwhelmingly obvious.

 

[wileedog]

Hindsight's 20/20.

*shrug* The results are what they are. I don't need a homer or realist label to point out that it looks very likely that we will be fielding an historically bad defense for the 2nd season in a row, and the mistakes that led to this situation. Or that the people in charge of this thing show very few signs that they are going to start doing things differently any time soon.

As for what knowing what needs to be done, it's already overwhelming obviously. Except to Jerry. Which is the absolute biggest problem by far.

 

[xwalker]

Is this his guess for game 1?

 

[Idgit]

*shrug* The results are what they are. I don't need a homer or realist label to point out that it looks very likely that we will be fielding an historically bad defense for the 2nd season in a row, and the mistakes that led to this situation. Or that the people in charge of this thing show very few signs that they are going to start doing things differently any time soon.

As for what knowing what needs to be done, it's already overwhelming obviously. Except to Jerry. Which is the absolute biggest problem by far.

In that case, I'm not sure any of us need a label to point out that our defense will be bad. It's going to be bad. Again. It's been bad for years.

I think we also know what the mistakes were. In hindsight, it's always easy to see what the mistakes were. That's mostly why it drives me crazy to have so many posters up in arms after the fact when it turns out the things they were complaining about previously were largely unrelated to what the actual current problems turned out to be. But that's just me.

In any event, you and I are in agreement that we're likely to be bad on defense, and mostly because our DL is comprised of either backups or players we've yet to be able to get on the field. And our LBs are compromised and not good enough in the first place.

 

[Idgit]

Is this his guess for game 1?

It's just a tweet re: this morning's practice.

 

[speedkilz88]

Is this his guess for game 1?

Practice, Melton is finally back. T McClain is still working on the side.

 

[xwalker]

Practice, Melton is finally back. T McClain is still working on the side.

Aah. Thanks.

I wonder about the thought process on Rolando McClain not being with the starters in the Dolphins game or now in practice.

 

[jobberone]

They were supposed to do more before the entire front 7 fell apart before this offseason.

Seattle and SF managed to build both of their Oline and front 7 at the same time basically from scratch within a relatively short time frame. Yet it is somehow impossible for this team? And people pointing that out are "whining"

BTW Mincey and TMcClain and even to an extent Melton given that he is coming off a major injury and RMcClain who is a headcase are the exact dumpster diving tactics we used for years to fix the Oline before we finally gave in and started throwing #1 picks at it. This is what happens when you have very little to show for your drafting in later rounds, when you are constantly trading up for pet cats and losing draft picks, and when you give major FA money to players with marginal impact like Carr. Not to mention switching defensive schemes and coordinators with no real plan so that half your roster was drafted to play in an entirely different scheme than the one du jour.

But that's just my 'agenda', don't mind me.

NP. I feel that way about the FO.

 

[jterrell]

They were supposed to do more before the entire front 7 fell apart before this offseason.

Seattle and SF managed to build both of their Oline and front 7 at the same time basically from scratch within a relatively short time frame. Yet it is somehow impossible for this team? And people pointing that out are "whining"

BTW Mincey and TMcClain and even to an extent Melton given that he is coming off a major injury and RMcClain who is a headcase are the exact dumpster diving tactics we used for years to fix the Oline before we finally gave in and started throwing #1 picks at it. This is what happens when you have very little to show for your drafting in later rounds, when you are constantly trading up for pet cats and losing draft picks, and when you give major FA money to players with marginal impact like Carr. Not to mention switching defensive schemes and coordinators with no real plan so that half your roster was drafted to play in an entirely different scheme than the one du jour.

But that's just my 'agenda', don't mind me.

Cool story bro except Seattle has a bottom 10 OL.
Seattle actually built through the secondary, you know that area which was the main consternation and agenda target.

SF has a quality starting OL holding out because they won't pay him.
They built a quite good OL as they went 8 wins or less form 2003-2010. That's quite a lot of high draft picks every year and every round.

They did pay for the skill players though ... and they've added highly drafted safeties each of the last two seasons.
Hmm, wonder who they are emulating there.

Might wanna pick better examples for your agenda.

 

[Mr Cowboy]

We're down to the last pre-season game, and the starting defense is not even set, or played one snap together. Do any of you really think this will be anything but a disaster of a defense?

 

[wileedog]

Cool story bro except Seattle has a bottom 10 OL.

They were 4th in rushing last year, so whatever they may be ranked they are obviously not as hapless as our DL.

Seattle actually built through the secondary, you know that area which was the main consternation and agenda target.

3 of their 4 starters in the backfield are 5th or 6th round picks that they happened to hit on. Yeah clearly that was a major focus for them.

SF has a quality starting OL holding out because they won't pay him.

Which has what all to do with what?

They built a quite good OL as they went 8 wins or less form 2003-2010. That's quite a lot of high draft picks every year and every round.

Yeah and the GM who did all that losing was fired. The new one found a new head coach and went to 3 consecutive NFC Championship games and a SB. We aren't that lucky. We have a process or something.

They did pay for the skill players though ... and they've added highly drafted safeties each of the last two seasons.
Hmm, wonder who they are emulating there.

Not us, we haven't paid a safety since Roy and we keep trying to find projects in the 4th round.

Might wanna pick better examples for your agenda.

My examples are of two teams that built quality rosters on both sides of the ball in a relatively short time period with astute drafting, smart FA signings and not trying to get too cute in the draft by constantly giving away draft picks. More importantly when the front office and coaches didn't have success for an extended period of time, they were let go and new one's were brought in until they found success. While I think Kaepernick will be something of an achilles heal for the Niners IMO, both teams are well set for the foreseeable future because they are making good decisions and have accountability.

They fit my agenda just fine.

 

[visionary]

and the people crying about this DL are the same people crying about the OL 2 years ago.
the ones who are too slow to look one step ahead and see the players and resources have been committed to it and positive results are forthcoming.

this dl is terrible. if by "this" we mean the back up laden group playing in games right now.
how this defense looks with mcclain, melton, dlaw and spencer back is anyone's guess.

With all due respect , our FO has been very reactionary

Manyof us had seen the OL as a huge need for more than 2 years that our FO conveniently ignored until things completely broke down

perhaps you missed the multitudes of posts and threads berating those who saw the OL as a huge need and telling us how great costa and Nagy and killer kowalski were going to be

No different than proclaiming what a great fit minter was going to be after one semi decent pre-season game

You tube scouting at its best

 

[TheDude]

First Seattle had injuries alng the Oline last year - Unger, Okung and Giacomini missed 18 games combined. Unger and Okung are good/great players. Also Seattle, Other than Earl Thomas, built nothing through the secondary via draft or FA. They drafted well

Both SF and Sea are beginning to have to make choices because they have to decide where the resources go as both are having to pay QBs on 2nd contracts. The fact they are balking at Boone is in no way a referendum that they dont value the line

One thing both teams dont do is trade the top 2 picks for a CB. You can argue Sherman is now a highly paid CB, but he was a 5th rounder who outperformed his status. Paying a homegrown talent in a stable system is different than throwing $50M at a FA, changing schemes, and being desperate to find a CB. You can make an arguement that Dallas's best defensive player currently on the roster is 5th rounder Scandrick

Dallas's problem is that Dallas hasnt drafted well. Especially in rds >4


2009
1st - Curry, LB,
2nd - Uger C
3rd - Butler WR

2010 -
1st Okung LT
1st Thomas S
2nd Tate WR
4th Turmond CB
4th Wilson DE
5th Chancellor

2011
1st Carpenter OG
3rd Moffitt OG - Retired
4th KJ Wright - LB
4th Durham - WR
5th Sherman - CB
5th LeGree - FS
6th Maxwell - CB

2012
1st - Irvin DE
2nd - Wagner LB
3rd - Wilson QB
4th - Turbin RB
4th - Howard DT
5th - Tommer LB
6th - Lane & Guy - CBs

2013 -
1st - Harvin WR (trade)
2nd - Michael RB
3rd - HIll DT
4th - Harper WR

2014 -
2nd - Richardson WR
2nd - Britt RT
3rd - Marsh DE
4th - MArsh WR
4th - Pierre-Louis LB

SF
2009
1st - Crabtree WR
3rd - Coffee RB
5th - McKillop LB
5th - Davis QB

2010
1st - Davis T
1st - Iupatti G
2nd - Taylor Mays S
3rd - Bowman LB

2011
1st - A Smith OLB/DE
2nd - Kaepernick QB
3rd - Culliver CB
4th - Hunter RB
5th - Kilgot G

2012
1st - Jenkins WR
2nd - James RB
4th - Looney G
5th - Fleming LB

2013
1st - Reid S
2nd - Carradine DE
2nd - McDonald TE
3rd - Lemonier DE
4th - Patton WR
4th - Lattimore RB
5th - Dial DE

2014
1st - Ward S
2nd - Hyde RB
3rd - Martin OL
3rd - Borland LB
3rd - Thomas OL
4th - Ellington WR
4th - Johnson CB
5th - Lynch DE
5th - Reaser CB

 

[CATCH17]

All i'm asking from this defense is don't finish as one of the worst 10 defenses in football.

 

[jterrell]

They were 4th in rushing last year, so whatever they may be ranked they are obviously not as hapless as our DL.



3 of their 4 starters in the backfield are 5th or 6th round picks that they happened to hit on. Yeah clearly that was a major focus for them.


Which has what all to do with what?



Yeah and the GM who did all that losing was fired. The new one found a new head coach and went to 3 consecutive NFC Championship games and a SB. We aren't that lucky. We have a process or something.


Not us, we haven't paid a safety since Roy and we keep trying to find projects in the 4th round.



My examples are of two teams that built quality rosters on both sides of the ball in a relatively short time period with astute drafting, smart FA signings and not trying to get too cute in the draft by constantly giving away draft picks. More importantly when the front office and coaches didn't have success for an extended period of time, they were let go and new one's were brought in until they found success. While I think Kaepernick will be something of an achilles heal for the Niners IMO, both teams are well set for the foreseeable future because they are making good decisions and have accountability.

They fit my agenda just fine.

Neither SF or SEA has a GM in place for more than a few seasons.
So no, they didn't build all that much.
They walked into teams with lots of high draft picks already on the roster.

Seattle has drafted 10 DBs since 2010 when the new GM/Coach came in, including 14 overall on a FS.
Wanna guess the TOTAL of the OL/DL they've drafted since 2010?

Seattle has a poor OL by any measure. So that hardly counts as building on both sides of the line.
But even more they didn't build that DL. Seattle had ZERO DL starters they drafted in the past 4 years.

Last year's DL starters?
2008 draft pick - Bryant
URFA and career back up - McDaniel
2007 Draft pick - Mebane
9 year vet Chris Clemons

So this amazing talent acquiring group has been responsible for adding 2 starters in 4 years both via FA.


And as to not being smart in the draft...
Seattle hasn't has a 1st round pick either of the last two years.

Seattle had 6 Pro Bowlers, only 1 of those was a lineman.
They had two all-pro players, both DBs.

 

[xwalker]

We're down to the last pre-season game, and the starting defense is not even set, or played one snap together. Do any of you really think this will be anything but a disaster of a defense?

It depends on what important.

They will look terrible and give up ton of yards; however, I think they will limit scoring to some extent and will generate turnovers.

My prediction on rankings:
Yards Allowed: 32nd
Points Allowed: 20th
Turnovers: 10th

 

[jterrell]

First Seattle had injuries alng the Oline last year -

Gonna stop you right there because no other team is getting injury excuses if you discount them for Dallas.

As to the rest just stop. The current front offices are not responsible for much of what plays on the lines for both teams.

Seattle rebuilt EVERYTHING BUT it's DL.
Skill positions both sides of the ball all new. LBs all new.

Only hold over starters are DL.

Seattle does not have good/great OL.
Okung has averaged less than 12 games a year and has made one pro bowl. He is well below Tyron Smith.
Unger is quite good but he's the only plus starter they have.
The other guys are all just journeyman.

SF just used the last two first round picks on safeties.
The last time they used a 1st or 2nd rounder on an OL was 2010. Under a different GM/Coach.
They've drafted more RBs in the top 4 rounds than any team in football the past 4 years.

Again just to be clear the building along the lines those teams did happened when they suckled and happened under previous regimes.

 

[jterrell]

It depends on what important.

They will look terrible and give up ton of yards; however, I think they will limit scoring to some extent and will generate turnovers.

My prediction on rankings:
Yards Allowed: 32nd
Points Allowed: 20th
Turnovers: 10th

End of the day what we "think" will happen matters absolutely zero.
All that matter is what does happen.

While the scheme and talent suggests something like you posit, there are far too many variables to know much of anything.

 

[jterrell]

Is this his guess for game 1?

he meant at walk through(no pads) practice today.

 

[CCBoy]

End of the day what we "think" will happen matters absolutely zero.
All that matter is what does happen.

While the scheme and talent suggests something like you posit, there are far too many variables to know much of anything.

If all truth on a site were limited to a proof verification, that would be of great importance. But here, there is still credibility in an informed outlook, and that makes things in many ways...much more interesting and fulfilling. We get to put a personally appreciated value to things. That isn't all bad from the premise.