The Difference

[RoyTheHammer]

The only difference that I see,
Is you are exactly the same as you used to be!

 

[THEHEREAFTER]

I love this thread. To be clear, I'm a fan of Tony Romo but what I don't like to hear was.. "he hasn't been given this or that... or it's ashame that we didn't provide this"... Football is the ultimate team sport but the QB leads and inspires. The QB has to elevate and make plays at key moments or avoid making the wrong play. Clearly '07. '09 and '14 were great opportunities. We also had chances to tilt those 8-8 seasons from '11 to '13. Once again, I root for Tony Romo and most of all The Dallas Cowboys.

 

[RS12]

Top 5 Seasons in Passer Rating
Staubach 5 (1971, 73, 77, 78, 79)

You left out the "when they actually played defense" part.

 

[plasticman]

Because you're comparing a very small sample (playoffs) with a very large sample (regular season). There will always be more volatility in a small sample because the outliers are overweighted. For example, early in the season, there's a huge separation between the #1 passer and #20. By the end of the season, that separation gets cut in half. Regression toward the mean. And keep in mind, Staubach and Aikman were exceptional postseason QB, even among their HOF peers.


And yet, no team has ever won a Super Bowl without a top 12 defense (points allowed), or one that played to that level in the playoffs.

I cant dispute that because you will just choose some other set of statistics over the usual accepted ones. You have a tendency to change the criteria until you find something that favors your agenda.

The bottom line:

Some quarterbacks thrive under playoff or elimination pressure and some dive.

The results soeak for themselves no matter how small the sample size, it is what happened.

I leave all posters to decide for themselves the potential for our two QB's to be in either group.

 

[percyhoward]

You left out the "when they actually played defense" part.

The three years that the Cowboys reached the NFC Championship game with Danny White, the Dallas defense ranked an average of 8th in points allowed and 5th in defensive passer rating.

In Staubach's best 3-year stretch (1977-79), his defenses ranked an average of 8th in points allowed and 9th in defensive passer rating.

 

[plasticman]

Mortons Cowboys stats don't necessarily measure up but I've always felt he should be considered in with these QB discussions.

Without Roger on the bench in waiting Morton would have likely gone on to be the first Cowboys QB to win a championship.

We must agree to disagree. He was the poster child for sport's definition of "choker".

Tossing the INT at precisely the wrong time was never good enough, it almost always had to be returned for a TD.

I just can't forget the sheer shock and disappointment of some of his throws.

I will give you this, he had a very strong arm, just bout the only QB that could throw it long enough so Bob Hayws didnt have to go baxk to get it. But that was his only reliable range.

 

[percyhoward]

I cant dispute that because you will just choose some other set of statistics over the usual accepted ones. You have a tendency to change the criteria until you find something that favors your agenda.

You've just made an accusation without giving an example.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

The difference:

Dak said his momma didnt like turnovers.
He still wants to please his momma.

RIP.

 

[RS12]

The three years that the Cowboys reached the NFC Championship game with Danny White, the Dallas defense ranked an average of 8th in points allowed and 5th in defensive passer rating.

In Staubach's best 3-year stretch (1977-79), his defenses ranked an average of 8th in points allowed and 9th in defensive passer rating.

I am talking about the league actually allowing defenders to defend. I think 78 or 79 they changed the contact downfield rules.

 

[percyhoward]

I am talking about the league actually allowing defenders to defend. I think 78 or 79 they changed the contact downfield rules.

I know. But that rule change affected every defense in the NFL -- not just Dallas.

 

[DeaconMoss]

When I look at the history of Dallas Cowboy quarterbacks, I see five "franchise quarterbacks". Solely for the purpose of this discussion, I will define that as meaning they were the primary starter for at least 5 seasons. The five are Don Meredith, Roger Staubach, Danny White, Troy Aikman, and Tony Romo. Tony's career has not ended, so I don't wish to place him in any particular group of accomplishments, that would be unfair.

I place the remaining four in one of two groups, those who have been on championship teams, and those who have not.

The first thing I observe is that all four have participated in at least 2 conference championship level playoff games. Meredith's games were NFL championships but not the Super Bowl since his career was during the time when the NFL and AFL were sepertate.However, the two championship games he did participate in placed the winner in the first two Super Bowls in history.

As we know, Staubach and Aikman won championships and I put them inGroup1 . Meredith and White did not and they are group 2.

What was the difference?

The obvious thought is that the QB's in group 1 played on more dominant teams, Not true. Meredith's team featured the flex 4-3 at it's pinnacle. They were #1 against the run, #2 overall, in most cases. Offensively, there were two seasons in which they were #1 in both scoring and yards, another year,they were #1 in one, #2 in the other.

Statistically, the teams of the early 80's were just as strong asa the team of the early 90's

How did those in group 1 obtain multiple championships and group 2 unable to obtain at least 1? Both groups,it seems,had equal opportunities.

The difference becomes clear when looking at the quarterbacks themselves. It is blunt and unavoidable.

Each season, contenders are faced with points in the season and in individual games where a small handful of plays or even a single play will change the outcome of the entire season. It will effect history. Yes, it is a team sport. However, there are those seconds in time where a player,particularly quarterbacks must make that play. He must find that receiver. He must make that throw. He must make that split second decision on which the outcome depends. Again, these are the plays that make history, elect Hall of Famers, create champions.

There are those quarterbacks in history that have shown a legendary ability to make that play consistantly. despite the pressure, the ramifications and the difficulty level, they found, within themselves, the ability to make that decision,make that throw, make that play that all football fans will remember. Not every single time, but you wouldn't bet against them. Sometimes, it's not necessary to make a great play, just don't make the bad play.

Those in our group 1 join QB's like Joe Montana, Tom Brady, and even Eli Manning. For each, you can access specific plays in their career as examples of the play that had to be made.There was The Catch, The Helmet Catch, The Hail Mary.They are the signature plays of the champions. Others might not be so obvious, they were successful due to their consistancy of producing outstanding performances. In every case, the plays that they are remembered for occurred in the playoffs Few NFL fans remember regular season play unless it was their own team.

Some fans may not have realized that Troy Aikman's best season was the post season. Not only did he elevate his play the postseason, he elevated his play at each stage of the playoffs. His rating in the divisional games 89.7, conference championshiops 100.3, Super Bowl games were111.9.

Group 2 were unable to make that play...repeatedly.They all had more than one opportunbity and each time they couldn't succeed. Some of them even played their worse games, made their worse mistakes, worse decisions. instead of the touchdown or game clinching 1st downs.

In the 1966 championship game, with the score 34-27 the Cowboys had the ball on the Packer's 2 yardline with time running out. Meredith threw an INT into the endzone. If the Cowboys had won the game they would have been the NFL representative to Super Bowl 1. In the 1967 championship game the Cowboys could have put the game away at the beginning of the 4th quarter. In two straight drives the Cowboys got to the Packer 30 and 19 but Merediuth fumbled in one and was sacked on 3rd down the other.

White started in 3 consecutive NFC championships.In the first two, he had 3 turnovers each.

In both cases,their overall passer rating for the postseason was close to 15 points less than the regular season.

In almost all cases all four quarterbacks were very good, efficient players when you look at their entire body of work. The real difference was simply those handful of plays. The one that absolutely had to be made.

I bring this subject up because it may be extremely relevant when we consider who to go forward with at quarterback once Tony Romo becomes healthy

Lost me at Eli

 

[DenCWBY]

Because you're comparing a very small sample (playoffs) with a very large sample (regular season). There will always be more volatility in a small sample because the outliers are overweighted. For example, early in the season, there's a huge separation between the #1 passer and #20. By the end of the season, that separation gets cut in half. Regression toward the mean. And keep in mind, Staubach and Aikman were exceptional postseason QB, even among their HOF peers.


And yet, no team has ever won a Super Bowl without a top 12 defense (points allowed), or one that played to that level in the playoffs.

Never knew that 2nd stat about SB defenses and it's very telling. Jerry, you can only pick one offensive player in the draft next year. Just 1!!

 

[RS12]

I know. But that rule change affected every defense in the NFL -- not just Dallas.

I am talking about the defenses Roger played against, not the Cowboy defenses. He played against different rules than those that followed making his case even stronger.

 

[Diehardblues]

We must agree to disagree. He was the poster child for sport's definition of "choker".

Tossing the INT at precisely the wrong time was never good enough, it almost always had to be returned for a TD.

I just can't forget the sheer shock and disappointment of some of his throws.

I will give you this, he had a very strong arm, just bout the only QB that could throw it long enough so Bob Hayws didnt have to go baxk to get it. But that was his only reliable range.

The SB interception was a tipped ball. I don't recall any other season ending blunders by Morton as I watched every game he played ?

Regardless , it doesn't explain leaving Morton out of this list for QB's.

 

[plasticman]

The SB interception was a tipped ball. I don't recall any other season ending blunders by Morton as I watched every game he played ?

Regardless , it doesn't explain leaving Morton out of this list for QB's.

Actually, I defined a franchise quarterback as having to be the primary starter for 5 seasons, only reason he was left off.

Hey, Craig had his moments. That is for sure. There was the 1970 Houston Oiler game, I beleive 4 TD's to Bullet Bob.

He had a great season for Denver, he and the defense got them to the Super Bowl.

He would be a definite group 2, career regular season rating of 73.5,respectable in those days but playoff rating of 42.0?

But I am very grateful for this:

The Cowboys traded Craig Morton to the Giants for a 1st round pick that turned out to be the #2 overall. They used that pick to get Hall of Famer Randy White.

 

[DandyDon52]

I think PM is saying the difference is leadership and decision making in the playoff games, and how well they throw the ball.
Not making key mistakes.
Coaching does factor into this, Take Craig Morton and his int in SB, landry called the play not Craig, maybe they should have been
running the ball as that was their strength, it was tied game, and joe namath had said before game that Craig's arm was not right since the injury.
And they should run the ball.

In the 2014 GB game, I still feel that given the situation, Romo made a mistake throwing to dez instead of just running with murray
to get the 1st down, and if your going to throw get it to Beasley or witten, the 2 sure handed recievers on a short pass.

I think GB went single on Dez hoping that would lure Tony into that throw and it worked.
The odds on that play are 50-50 and you get better odds running or throwing short.

The main thing Dak is doing right now that is winning games, is not throwing ints, and not fumbling or being sacked in key situations.
Opposing teams have to drive for scores, and that helps our defense.
Top with our long drives also helps our weak defense, by shortening games, and less possessions.

So far I would say his leadership and mistake free play is better than Tony ever was.
Will it continue? I dont know, but I think it will, the next 2 games will be exciting to watch.

Just judging from what dak has said, I think he would rather play with butler than dez.

 

[percyhoward]

I am talking about the defenses Roger played against, not the Cowboy defenses. He played against different rules than those that followed making his case even stronger.

Oh, okay gotcha. That's a great point that I hadn't considered, but guys like Bradshaw and Fouts did see their careers take off. If only Roger had been a 23-year old rookie in 1969 instead of a 27-year old.