The fictional “Elite Quarterback” label

[gjkoeppen]

Dak is not a top tier NFL quarterback. Nor is the line between 'really good' and 'elite' thin.

These two guys are clowns. If they (or you) can't look at Mahomes and see that he's elite -- and much better than a 'really good' guy like Matt Ryan -- I don't know what to say.

This has the feel of a Dak apology thread.

And you're proclaiming that your opinion is more relevant or important than David Helman and Jonny Auping. If they knew you and read your comments would they call you a clown? There have been times that I disagreed with what they have said, but that doesn't make them clowns.
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[Outlaw Heroes]

And you're proclaiming that your opinion is more relevant or important than David Helman and Jonny Auping. If they knew you and read your comments would they call you a clown? There have been times that I disagreed with what they have said, but that doesn't make them clowns.
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I'm proclaiming that the general opinion -- namely, that we can distinguish between elite and non-elite QBs -- is more deserving of respect than theirs. The issue isn't that I disagree with them. The issue is that they purport to do away with distinctions that almost all football fans find useful and meaningful on the basis of extremely weak arguments. That's what makes them clowns.

 

[MWH1967]

Guess you got a Field goal fetish bud.....

434 points last year. That's about 5th or 6th in the league. Just can't be all field goals.

 

[Hadenough]

You could substitute the word elite QB for a NFL QB who is one of the best at his position and Dak still doesnt fit. Im not going to lower the bar and say elite and very good are the same. There are just certain QBs that have that ability to make the players around them better and they make big plays in big games to get the win. It doesnt take an expert to see an NFL QB throw a football and be able to judge how accurate he is. Or even how hard he throws the ball. You just watch enough games and watch different players around the league and you can form your own evaluation of the player.
Dak has yet to show any ability to carry the team to victory when the team around him struggles. He has shown flashes of good play mixed in with very inconsistent play. Dak deserves to be paid like a 12th ranked QB but not like a top 3 QB.

 

[John813]

Peak offseason when we got a 8 page thread over the meaning of the word elite and if it applies to the NFL.

 

[JoeKing]

Dak Prescott is an elite quarterback.

There was exactly one QB in the league last year who was top-5 in accuracy, and top-5 in air yards. Give you one guess who it is.

 

[gjkoeppen]

I'm proclaiming that the general opinion -- namely, that we can distinguish between elite and non-elite QBs -- is more deserving of respect than theirs. The issue isn't that I disagree with them. The issue is that they purport to do away with distinctions that almost all football fans find useful and meaningful on the basis of extremely weak arguments. That's what makes them clowns.

All you've done is try to justify why your opinion is more relevant than someone else's opinion. Let me put it another way. Those two get paid for their opinions so at least someone doesn't think they are clowns. They have people that watch and listen to them which also is clear that you did at least once. Who is paying you for your opinion? No matter what you think is the basis of your opinion and because it differs from those two guys, does not make them clowns. If that isn't true than there can be people out there that think you're a clown because they disagree with your opinion.
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[Flamma]

The truth of the matter is that quarterbacks from all over the spectrum have helped their teams win Super Bowls — and for a variety of different reasons. For all his talent and accolades, Aaron Rodgers has as many Super Bowl wins as Joe Flacco. Peyton Manning has the same number of championship rings as his little brother, and I think we'd all agree that Peyton was the much better player than Eli.

Ok. Then why pay these guys a ridiculous sum? Hell, Jim Plunkett won two super bowls and he was the backup. Just get any average to good QB and tap into that "variety of reasons" to win a championship.

 

[OmerV]

Dak is not a top tier NFL quarterback. Nor is the line between 'really good' and 'elite' thin.

These two guys are clowns. If they (or you) can't look at Mahomes and see that he's elite -- and much better than a 'really good' guy like Matt Ryan -- I don't know what to say.

This has the feel of a Dak apology thread.

Skip the second guy and consider what the first had to say.

I read their explanations. They were idiotic.

Mahomes has looked elite since he stepped on the field. Find another hobby. This one is beyond you.

I don't think they are saying Mahomes isn't elite, they are just saying it is hard to draw the line between where very good ends and elite starts. I'm sure both guys would agree Mahomes isn't right on the dividing line.

 

[Outlaw Heroes]

All you've done is try to justify why your opinion is more relevant than someone else's opinion. Let me put it another way. Those two get paid for their opinions so at least someone doesn't think they are clowns. They have people that watch and listen to them which also is clear that you did at least once. Who is paying you for your opinion? No matter what you think is the basis of your opinion and because it differs from those two guys, does not make them clowns. If that isn't true than there can be people out there that think you're a clown because they disagree with your opinion.
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I'm open to the logical possibility I could hold an opinion so wrong-headed that others would be justified in thinking I'm a clown. But in order to justify the label others would have to be able to do more than simply express their disagreement. If they could show that my opinion is clearly discordant with common experience and that I haven't begun to justify my departure from commonly held understandings, they would have justified use of the label in my opinion.

It appears that your view, in contrast, is that no opinion -- no matter how radical and unjustified -- could ever justify use of the label. I think that's a kinder (and more civil) view than mine. I just don't think it's correct.

 

[Outlaw Heroes]

I don't think they are saying Mahomes isn't elite, they are just saying it is hard to draw the line between where very good ends and elite starts. I'm sure both guys would agree Mahomes isn't right on the dividing line.

I think you're right and that this is a useful contribution to the discussion. But to me, this is the problem. It's standard operating procedure, when one wants to deny the utility of a concept -- say 'elite' -- to point out ambiguous cases around the periphery of the concept (nobody reasonable would deny such cases exist) and proceed from there to claim inappropriately that the concept is purely subjective or borderline useless (as Helman does). That conclusion simply isn't justified, as your argument reveals. If there are clear cases of 'elite' QBs (such as Mahomes, prime Brady and whomever else we might agree upon) Helman's thesis fails, notwithstanding that there will always be borderline cases.

 

[gjkoeppen]

I'm open to the logical possibility I could hold an opinion so wrong-headed that others would be justified in thinking I'm a clown. But in order to justify the label others would have to be able to do more than simply express their disagreement. If they could show that my opinion is clearly discordant with common experience and that I haven't begun to justify my departure from commonly held understandings, they would have justified use of the label in my opinion.

It appears that your view, in contrast, is that no opinion -- no matter how radical and unjustified -- could ever justify use of the label. I think that's a kinder (and more civil) view than mine. I just don't think it's correct.

Once AGAIN you've tried to justify what you think and your opinion is more relevant based on what you think. There have several sportswriters/ announcers that have said that elite is an over used term. So do you question every sportswriter/announcer that thinks elite is over used too?
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[Outlaw Heroes]

Once AGAIN you've tried to justify what you think and your opinion is more relevant based on what you think. There have several sportswriters/ announcers that have said that elite is an over used term. So do you question every sportswriter/announcer that thinks elite is over used too?
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The term may be overused. That just confirms that there are QBs to which it shouldn't (or can't clearly) be applied. It doesn't establish, as Helman claims, that the concept is 'purely subjective and borderline useless.' (This is the point addressed in my exchange with @OmerV.) That opinion is unjustified and, indeed, clownish based upon the evidence presented.

 

[OmerV]

I think you're right and that this is a useful contribution to the discussion. But to me, this is the problem. It's standard operating procedure, when one wants to deny the utility of a concept -- say 'elite' -- to point out ambiguous cases around the periphery of the concept (nobody reasonable would deny such cases exist) and proceed from there to claim inappropriately that the concept is purely subjective or borderline useless (as Helman does). That conclusion simply isn't justified, as your argument reveals. If there are clear cases of 'elite' QBs (such as Mahomes, prime Brady and whomever else we might agree upon) Helman's thesis fails, notwithstanding that there will always be borderline cases.

I don't disagree. There can be argument with whether some fall into the very good or elite category, but some are undeniable. For me, Mahomes is a no brainer as an elite guy. Same for Rogers and Brees. Brady in his prime as well, but I don't know that he would still be at that level. I personally would put Wilson in that category, but he is one that probably hovers around the dividing line.

My biggest problem with the elite designation is it seems to cause people to believe winning requires an elite QB. Obviously it helps, but the group is so small that the expectation can't be to throw in the towel if a team doesn't have one of them. Teams have to find ways to win without it, like the Giants and Ravens did with Eli and Flacco. I believe guys like Wentz and Dak, among others, can win a championship, they just need a little more help than a Rogers or Mahomes.

 

[Sarge]

Dak Prescott is an elite quarterback.

There was exactly one QB in the league last year who was top-5 in accuracy, and top-5 in air yards. Give you one guess who it is.

You cant beat ignorance

 

[gjkoeppen]

The term may be overused. That just confirms that there are QBs to which it shouldn't (or can't clearly) be applied. It doesn't establish, as Helman claims, that the concept is 'purely subjective and borderline useless.' (This is the point addressed in my exchange with @OmerV.) That opinion is unjustified and, indeed, clownish based upon the evidence presented.

Actually I have just reread that comment that started this and what you've done is take what Helman and Auping said out of context. Helman did say that "It's a completely subjective, borderline meaningless word that people throw around" But he ended that statement by saying "to win arguments without using facts". So what that means is for those who are lazy or don't have facts to back up what they think they just use the label elite.

Then Auping said "anybody with a definitive list of who is or isn't "elite" just wants to sound like an expert" and then finished this by saying "The line between "really good" and "elite" is thin." and then "ultimately quarterbacks are judged by wins" What he's saying is that some believe a QB has to wins a Super Bowl to become an elite QB. Here's a prime example of why he mocks that. Dan Marino never won a Super Bowl but he was considered an elite QB in his day even though they didn't call them elite back then.

So what I see now is you're the clown who took things out of context to try to make your opinion more relevant than theirs.
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[kskboys]

As soon as I heard Eli and Flacco being called elite right after their super bowl wins, I knew there were some really dumb people who don't understand the simplest of terms.

 

[G2]

Elite is best of the best. Not the top 10 to fit a narrative or to argue a player isn't "worth" what the fan suggests. Market value with regard to a QB isn't based on ranking, it's based on what a team needs. If every team refused to pay a QB that wasn't Marino they would never have a competitive team.

 

[sean10mm]

You cant beat ignorance

I heard the same idea put slightly differently: "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."

 

[kskboys]

The passing yardage leader has NEVER won the super bowl.