The NFL's Official Change to What Is A Catch: Dez Bryant play rule rewritten *merge*

[DogFace]

2012 case play. If they dropped it from the 2014 book, that means it does not apply any more. Anything that applies would still be in the book in 2014. Probably because they realised it was incorrect, or a typo......

A typo????

 

[Joefrl]

Just quoted you to highlight again how this example says it very clearly. It's even bold printed for those with selective reading habits.

http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2014-nfl-rulebook/#rule8

http://static.nfl.com/static/conten.../pdfs/11_2013_ForwardPass_BackPass_Fumble.pdf

Links to the 2013 & 2014 Case books.

 

[Joefrl]

Well you've been shown examples with clear explanations from us and the officials contradicting your interpretation. Like the Gresham play.

So show us some rulings that explain how it wasn't a catch because part of the 3 step process was completed while falling.

Bernard Berrian, 2004 Chicago Bears, Caught the ball while just standing there in the end zone. Immediately after, he was taken to the ground and he dropped the ball. They said it was incomplete because part C of a catch had no chance to happen BEFORE he was "in the act of being tackled".

 

[Joefrl]

No, you don't just read the case book and go back and forth comparing a fan's interpretations of imaginary plays. Maybe you do if you just like the back and forth.

But if the point is really to understand the overturn, that's going to come from those responsible. What were they thinking when they said it wasn't a catch? They've answered that question without any contradiction.

I am not interested in what they say, because they contradict themselves so much. I am only interested in what the case book says.
Unless I ask a question, and they answer it, I don't pay a lot of attention to what they say.

 

[DogFace]

http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2014-nfl-rulebook/#rule8

http://static.nfl.com/static/conten.../pdfs/11_2013_ForwardPass_BackPass_Fumble.pdf

Links to the 2013 & 2014 Case books.

That answers nothing.

Blind-zebra's example is a perfect example of how Dezs catch was a catch. Explain to us how It's wrong.
It's from the rules book.

 

[DogFace]

Bernard Berrian, 2004 Chicago Bears, Caught the ball while just standing there in the end zone. Immediately after, he was taken to the ground and he dropped the ball. They said it was incomplete because part C of a catch had no chance to happen BEFORE he was "in the act of being tackled".

Give a video link and I can explain it to you. I can't recall that play for some reason.

 

[percyhoward]

I am not interested in what they say, because they contradict themselves so much. I am only interested in what the case book says.

You're obviously not even interested in understanding the overturn. The official explanations don't support your argument, so you'd rather pick battles you think you can win by seeking refuge in the open interpretations of the case book.

 

[Joefrl]

Give a video link and I can explain it to you. I can't recall that play for some reason.

I would love to see a video two, but I was never able to find one. I told you exactly what happened, you shouldn't need anymore than that.
Just got through the 2015 NFL rule changes and points of emphasis video. They said in there a "Reach" by the receiver is NOT considered a football move!
The way they describe a catch, and they way they described no catch, supports my case, but they never said specificly that A,B,&C has to be done before he begins to fall.

Anyway we can forget about whether he reached or not.

 

[Joefrl]

You're obviously not even interested in understanding the overturn. The official explanations don't support your argument, so you'd rather pick battles you think you can win by seeking refuge in the open interpretations of the case book.

Just watched the 2015 NFL rule changes and points of interest video. One thing they said is that a "Reach" is NOT considered a football move! I was right about Pereira being wrong there. So, you forget about whether there was a reach or not, doesn't matter.

Everything they said about what is a catch, and what isn't a catch, supports my case, but they did not say specifically that A,B, &C have to be done before the receiver starts to fall. I still contend item 1 says exactly that.

 

[Joefrl]

That answers nothing.

Blind-zebra's example is a perfect example of how Dezs catch was a catch. Explain to us how It's wrong.
It's from the rules book.

It is not in the 2013 or 2014 rule book, in fact nothing in either supports your case.

 

[DallasEast]

Give a video link and I can explain it to you. I can't recall that play for some reason.

He pulled out a verbal defense over a decade old. Even NFL.com rarely retains video that old with the exception of historical league highlights. There are written accounts that date back to that particular game, including this Chicago Tribune excerpt:

Much of the postgame focus has centered on the interpretation of referee Terry McAulay and replay official Bobby Skelton that claimed, in McAulay's words, "the ball moved when [Berrian] hit the ground." Because the replay did not produce irrefutable proof of a reception, Dyer's incomplete-pass call was not overturned.

But an NFL spokesman said in a statement Monday that if Dyer had ruled that Berrian had come down inbounds and had signaled touchdown, that call also would have stood.

"In this case, the judgment on the field was an incomplete pass," the statement read. "Had that on-field ruling been a touchdown, replay would have offered no clear-cut evidence to reverse that call either."

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2004-12-28/sports/0412280361_1_bears-replay-field-judge

 

[blindzebra]

http://media02.nfl.info/NFL/Officiating/2015/Videos/2015_Rules_Changes.wmv

End of "points of emphasis" a new rule change in wolves clothing is born. A brace and reach has been a football act for at least 4 seasons as has been shown by the case book play posted here. Their illustration of receiver to runner was after more than 4 steps in the video. It will be interesting what the 2015 case book will have in it and how this ridiculous "clarification" will be called.

Sadly the game we all love is fast becoming professional wrestling.

 

[BlindFaith]

It is not in the 2013 or 2014 rule book, in fact nothing in either supports your case.

Hang in there brother. There are a lot of knowledgeable folks that support what you are explaining. Specifically the NFL Competition Committee, Jeff Fisher, the NFL referees, the majority of NFL players and anyone who can read a rule book.

Did Dez catch the ball? Yes. Does the rule book support that as a catch? No.

 

[blindzebra]

Hang in there brother. There are a lot of knowledgeable folks that support what you are explaining. Specifically the NFL Competition Committee, Jeff Fisher, the NFL referees, the majority of NFL players and anyone who can read a rule book.

Did Dez catch the ball? Yes. Does the rule book support that as a catch? No.

And much more knowledgeable folks find the following in the NFL Case Book that says otherwise.

A.R. 8.12 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. He goes to the ground as a result of the contact, gets his second foot down, and with the ball in his right arm, he braces himself at the three-yard line with his left hand and simultaneously lunges forward toward the goal line. When he lands in the end zone, the ball comes out. Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The pass is complete. When the receiver hits the ground in the end zone, it is the result of lunging forward after bracing himself at the three-yard line and is not part of the process of the catch. Since the ball crossed the goal line, it is a touchdown. If the ball is short of the goal line, it is a catch, and A2 is down by contact.

There is the rule applied where parts B and C were completed after the going to the ground began. That is from the official NFL Case Book and clearly says that A-C can all occur after a player falls as long as all 3 are complete before he lands.

 

[BlindFaith]

And much more knowledgeable folks find the following in the NFL Case Book that says otherwise.

A.R. 8.12 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. He goes to the ground as a result of the contact, gets his second foot down, and with the ball in his right arm, he braces himself at the three-yard line with his left hand and simultaneously lunges forward toward the goal line. When he lands in the end zone, the ball comes out. Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The pass is complete. When the receiver hits the ground in the end zone, it is the result of lunging forward after bracing himself at the three-yard line and is not part of the process of the catch. Since the ball crossed the goal line, it is a touchdown. If the ball is short of the goal line, it is a catch, and A2 is down by contact.

There is the rule applied where parts B and C were completed after the going to the ground began. That is from the official NFL Case Book and clearly says that A-C can all occur after a player falls as long as all 3 are complete before he lands.

You're fighting the entire league my man. You're fighting for an explanation that doesn't exist. Your myopic views on this ONE catch doesn't fit into the nature of why it ISN'T a catch.

I can appreciate that. I really do. The language of the rule still sucks. But bottom line, after 100's of pages of trying to squeeze this into your rationale of why it COULD have been a catch, most of us have moved on.

Hold on to the ball until you can hand if off to an official. Like Barry Sanders did. Then you know for sure it's a catch.

But carry on if you wish. Personally I think there are bigger things in this world to discuss. But that's just me.

 

[Joefrl]

And much more knowledgeable folks find the following in the NFL Case Book that says otherwise.

A.R. 8.12 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. He goes to the ground as a result of the contact, gets his second foot down, and with the ball in his right arm, he braces himself at the three-yard line with his left hand and simultaneously lunges forward toward the goal line. When he lands in the end zone, the ball comes out. Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The pass is complete. When the receiver hits the ground in the end zone, it is the result of lunging forward after bracing himself at the three-yard line and is not part of the process of the catch. Since the ball crossed the goal line, it is a touchdown. If the ball is short of the goal line, it is a catch, and A2 is down by contact.

There is the rule applied where parts B and C were completed after the going to the ground began. That is from the official NFL Case Book and clearly says that A-C can all occur after a player falls as long as all 3 are complete before he lands.

There was no brace. Trying to brace is not the same as bracing, just as trying to catch the ball is not the same as catching the ball.
Was his ever stopped for a moment? No.

 

[kycowboyfan]

I still say one of the most overlooked things about that play is did the ball ever touch the ground. I watched that play over and over and never saw any indisputable evidence that when the ball popped up and Dez regained that it ever touched the ground. But all the announcers and seemingly the officals were worried about was the Calvin Johnson rule.

 

[percyhoward]

Just watched the 2015 NFL rule changes and points of interest video. One thing they said is that a "Reach" is NOT considered a football move!

This is completely untrue, at least as it relates to the Dez play.

The video simply communicates the new rule, stating that "reaching the ball out before you become a runner will not trump the requirement to hold onto the ball when you land." Note the use of the future tense because it's a new rule. That's why it's in the Rule Changes Video. There is, of course, no mention of the terms "football move" or "act common to the game," because those terms have been removed. See this thread's OP.

No one disputes that, when the 2015 season begins, there will no longer be such a thing as a football move. No one except you disputes that, through the 2014 season, a reach is a football move that establishes a player as a runner.

You can't apply 2015 rules to 2014 plays. This is about the NFL's explanation of the overturn, at the time, under the rules that existed at that time. Although you try really hard to make it about something else.

And we all know why they changed the rule, don't we?

 

[percyhoward]

Hang in there brother. There are a lot of knowledgeable folks that support what you are explaining. Specifically the NFL Competition Committee, Jeff Fisher, the NFL referees, the majority of NFL players and anyone who can read a rule book.

Nice list, but...it was the VP of Officiating who actually made the call. You either have to ignore his explanation, or answer these questions:

What would have made a two-handed reach more of a football move than a one-handed reach? and

How would extending his arm have moved the ball any closer to the goal line?

 

[nathanlt]

There was no brace. Trying to brace is not the same as bracing, just as trying to catch the ball is not the same as catching the ball.
Was his ever stopped for a moment? No.

Youve already conceded the lunge and warding off the defender, both of which were specific examples of a football move during the rules in place while the Dez CATCH happened. Why even debate the third football move? You know Dez caught the football, BY RULE.