The Pass Rush Debate

[Verdict]

Many posters on this forum have been talking about the lack of a "pass rush". I don't think that the "pass rush" per se is a weakness. I'm not saying we couldn't use more pass rushers, but the ACTUAL PASS RUSH wasn't the problem ..... it was the LACK OF EFFECTIVENESS OF THE RUSH we did get. In other words.... the rush didn't get as many pressures or sacks as it should have based on the rush alone.

Many times last year Ware, or Spencer (and sometimes other players) were ALMOST there, getting pressure on the QB, but then the defense lost containment (usually up the middle). Ryan consistently applied outside pressure, stubbornly trying to get sacks from the outside. The rush he got from the outside was adequate, but often the DL allowed penetration up the middle, or the DB's allowed a receiver to run free, just ahead of the oncoming pass rush. The Eagles repeatedly KILLED us last year over and over in this scenario.

If we can stop the penetration up the middle (however we elect to accomplish that feat) I think the sacks will go up significantly.

 

[Beast_from_East]

Many posters on this forum have been talking about the lack of a "pass rush". I don't think that the "pass rush" per se is a weakness. I'm not saying we couldn't use more pass rushers, but the ACTUAL PASS RUSH wasn't the problem ..... it was the LACK OF EFFECTIVENESS OF THE RUSH we did get. In other words.... the rush didn't get as many pressures or sacks as it should have based on the rush alone.

Many times last year Ware, or Spencer (and sometimes other players) were ALMOST there, getting pressure on the QB, but then the defense lost containment (usually up the middle). Ryan consistently applied outside pressure, stubbornly trying to get sacks from the outside. The rush he got from the outside was adequate, but often the DL allowed penetration up the middle, or the DB's allowed a receiver to run free, just ahead of the oncoming pass rush. The Eagles repeatedly KILLED us last year over and over in this scenario.

If we can stop the penetration up the middle (however we elect to accomplish that feat) I think the sacks will go up significantly.

Thats why alot of fans want Ratliff moved to DE and a huge space eating NT replacing him.


That has always been the achilles heel of a 34, you have to have a big NT to clog the middle and not allow the QB to step up into the pocket and avoid the outside rushers.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Im not sure how you differentiate "lack of a pass rush" and "lack of an effective pass rush". You're saying the same thing as the rest of us, OP.

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

Many posters on this forum have been talking about the lack of a "pass rush". I don't think that the "pass rush" per se is a weakness. I'm not saying we couldn't use more pass rushers, but the ACTUAL PASS RUSH wasn't the problem ..... it was the LACK OF EFFECTIVENESS OF THE RUSH we did get. In other words.... the rush didn't get as many pressures or sacks as it should have based on the rush alone.

Many times last year Ware, or Spencer (and sometimes other players) were ALMOST there, getting pressure on the QB, but then the defense lost containment (usually up the middle). Ryan consistently applied outside pressure, stubbornly trying to get sacks from the outside. The rush he got from the outside was adequate, but often the DL allowed penetration up the middle, or the DB's allowed a receiver to run free, just ahead of the oncoming pass rush. The Eagles repeatedly KILLED us last year over and over in this scenario.

If we can stop the penetration up the middle (however we elect to accomplish that feat) I think the sacks will go up significantly.

Saying the pass rush was actually pretty good but just not effective so it really wasnt as big of a problem as perceived even though it was a problem is crazy.

You either have an effective pass rush or you dont.

After reading your post, Im wondering if you have ever considered a career in politics. You just said a whole lot without actually saying anything.

 

[Ren]

Saying the pass rush was actually pretty good but just not effective so it really wasnt as big of a problem as perceived even though it was a problem is crazy.

You either have an effective pass rush or you dont.

After reading your post, Im wondering if you have ever considered a career in politics. You just said a whole lot without actually saying anything.

Not really, how many times did we see say Ware get a sack on 1st or 2nd only for the QB to have a nice clean pocket to step up in on 3rd and long and convert anyways. We get a lot of sack but our pass rush really isn't that good, we don't get consistent pressure and haven't since the end of the 09 season

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Not really, how many times did we see say Ware get a sack on 1st or 2nd only for the QB to have a nice clean pocket to step up in on 3rd and long and convert anyways. We get a lot of sack but our pass rush really isn't that good, we don't get consistent pressure and haven't since the end of the 09 season

So again.. the pass rush is either effective or its not. We get alot of sacks because DeMarcus Ware plays for this team and he's the best pass rusher in the NFL. If we had somebody else in that spot, it would be even more clear how ineffective our pass rush is overall. When you have a guy that can basically get 20 sacks a year by himself, it skews the data a bit.

 

[djmajestik]

Im not sure how you differentiate "lack of a pass rush" and "lack of an effective pass rush". You're saying the same thing as the rest of us, OP.

I can't believe I am agreeing with you :laugh2: But yeah, that had me kind of scratching my head too.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

I can't believe I am agreeing with you :laugh2: But yeah, that had me kind of scratching my head too.

I think he's just trying too hard, haha.

 

[cowboyfan4life2]

I believe in the giants theory that you can never have enough good pass rushers. I would absolutely love to get ingrim in the first round this year.

 

[burmafrd]

either your pass rush gets to the QB and sacks him or makes him hurry a throw or your pass rush fails.

 

[CCBoy]

either your pass rush gets to the QB and sacks him or makes him hurry a throw or your pass rush fails.

That's pretty much the logistics of it allright, burma...

 

[Doomsday101]

Frankly not as concerned with the outside rushers of Dallas but we need to do a much better job of bring pressure up the middle and collapsing the pocket so QB's can't step up and away from the outside rushers.

 

[Fanatico]

I will try to explain what he is saying in a better way. The way he is trying to explain it doesn't make sense.
I believe that he is saying that the problem isn't our LB's, it's our DL. Correct me if that's not what you mean.
He may have a point. I think getting a NT and moving Ratliff to DE would help our defense out a ton.

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

The way he is trying to explain it doesn't make sense.

Thank you!

 

[Shinywalrus]

I think the OP is saying that having individual players who are getting to the quarterback isn't as valuable when that quarterback has the ability to escape the pocket or step up; in other words, you can have the best edge rushers in the league, but if you always have a clean pocket in front of him, that "pressure" won't matter a lick.

I think there's some truth to this.

Here's what I think would fix the pass rush, some of which we've already done:

- The most obvious is to give our pass rushers another 1/4 to 1/2 second from coverage. I'm hopeful on this front.

- Let 93 freelance a bit more. I know it's fun to let Ware play the matchups, but the truth is that it's Spencer that gets caught overpursuing. Teams take advantage of it. Let him blitz from the inside a bit more, stunt with the DEs a bit more. We need to lessen teams' desire to take advantage of his bad contain. This provided an escape route to a lot of QBs when Ware got good coverage.

- Improve the speed and athleticism of the guys we're blitzing from the inside. This is a huge improvement. I think we're going to be very happy seeing inside blitzes from Lee, Carter and Connor. The "pressure" will look better with our ILBs not getting immediately picked up and stonewalled all the time.

- A bit more Lissemore and Hatcher, a bit less Spears and Coleman. I think the writing's on the wall for this, but we'll have to see.

I suppose we could improve personnel on the inside, but I'm not convinced we need to. I think we have the personnel to be a top 6 or 7 pressure team. Depth for freshness and rotation would be very good, of course.

 

[Doomsday101]

I think the OP is saying that having individual players who are getting to the quarterback isn't as valuable when that quarterback has the ability to escape the pocket or step up; in other words, you can have the best edge rushers in the league, but if you always have a clean pocket in front of him, that "pressure" won't matter a lick.

I think there's some truth to this.

Here's what I think would fix the pass rush, some of which we've already done:

- The most obvious is to give our pass rushers another 1/4 to 1/2 second from coverage. I'm hopeful on this front.

- Let 93 freelance a bit more. I know it's fun to let Ware play the matchups, but the truth is that it's Spencer that gets caught overpursuing. Teams take advantage of it. Let him blitz from the inside a bit more, stunt with the DEs a bit more. We need to lessen teams' desire to take advantage of his bad contain. This provided an escape route to a lot of QBs when Ware got good coverage.

- Improve the speed and athleticism of the guys we're blitzing from the inside. This is a huge improvement. I think we're going to be very happy seeing inside blitzes from Lee, Carter and Connor. The "pressure" will look better with our ILBs not getting immediately picked up and stonewalled all the time.

- A bit more Lissemore and Hatcher, a bit less Spears and Coleman. I think the writing's on the wall for this, but we'll have to see.

I suppose we could improve personnel on the inside, but I'm not convinced we need to. I think we have the personnel to be a top 6 or 7 pressure team. Depth for freshness and rotation would be very good, of course.

I think one major difference will be more speed from the ILB position. With James and Brooking they were always a step to slow with Carter, Dallas may be able to send the ILB blitz more often and be more effective.

 

[The30YardSlant]

Our problem was the scheme more than anything.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

OK...

Here's the Giants sacks/QB hits/QB pressures totals for 2011...

49/51/149

Here's the Cowboys...

43/50/192



Also keep in mind that the Giant defense faced 589 pass attempts, and the Cowboys 545.

That means the Giants created a QB Hit or QB Pressure about 34% of the time.

And the Cowboys?

44% of the time.

Here are a couple things to keep in mind...

The Cowboys pass rush isn't "mush" as several would like to infer.

Secondly you simply aren't going to create pressure every single pass attempt– it doesn't work like that.

And that's where pass defense comes into play and that's where the Cowboy defense truly comes up small.

Yeah, more pass rush would jim-dandy, but the pass defense needs to be improved (greatly) for this team to be a consistent winner. The yards-per-attempt they give up is way too high.

 

[Doomsday101]

OK...

Here's the Giants sacks/QB hits/QB pressures totals for 2011...

49/51/149

Here's the Cowboys...

43/50/192



Also keep in mind that the Giant defense faced 589 pass attempts, and the Cowboys 545.

That means the Giants created a QB Hit or QB Pressure about 34% of the time.

And the Cowboys?

44% of the time.

Here are a couple things to keep in mind...

The Cowboys pass rush isn't "mush" as several would like to infer.

Secondly you simply aren't going to create pressure every single pass attempt– it doesn't work like that.

And that's where pass defense comes into play and that's where the Cowboy defense truly comes up small.

Yeah, more pass rush would jim-dandy, but the pass defense needs to be improved (greatly) for this team to be a consistent winner. The yards-per-attempt they give up is way too high.

Thanks for the research. Good information to know.

 

[boysfanindc]

OK...

Here's the Giants sacks/QB hits/QB pressures totals for 2011...

49/51/149

Here's the Cowboys...

43/50/192



Also keep in mind that the Giant defense faced 589 pass attempts, and the Cowboys 545.

That means the Giants created a QB Hit or QB Pressure about 34% of the time.

And the Cowboys?

44% of the time.

Here are a couple things to keep in mind...

The Cowboys pass rush isn't "mush" as several would like to infer.

Secondly you simply aren't going to create pressure every single pass attempt– it doesn't work like that.

And that's where pass defense comes into play and that's where the Cowboy defense truly comes up small.

Yeah, more pass rush would jim-dandy, but the pass defense needs to be improved (greatly) for this team to be a consistent winner. The yards-per-attempt they give up is way too high.

Yes, agree totally, we were tied for 14th in the league, I believe in sack totals, neither great or awful.

Young LB's that can get deeper in coverage and Carr should help in coverage and make the QB continue his progression which takes time, which should translate into better sack numbers.

Still would love to see a DE, that can get into the backfield on a occasion.