The Pass Rush Debate

[MichaelWinicki]

Still would love to see a DE, that can get into the backfield on a occasion.

I'm right there with you on that.

Yeah, I would like to see Spencer get more sacks BUT when you've got two "lumps" on the defensive line like Spears and Coleman who had a combined 2 sacks and 16 pressures while consuming 800 snaps... That's where the real problem lies.

 

[Doomsday101]

Yes, agree totally, we were tied for 14th in the league, I believe in sack totals, neither great or awful.

Young LB's that can get deeper in coverage and Carr should help in coverage and make the QB continue his progression which takes time, which should translate into better sack numbers.

Still would love to see a DE, that can get into the backfield on a occasion.

Dallas was 7th in sacks in the NFL tied with SF with 42 sacks

 

[Shinywalrus]

I'm right there with you on that.

Yeah, I would like to see Spencer get more sacks BUT when you've got two "lumps" on the defensive line like Spears and Coleman who had a combined 2 sacks and 16 pressures while consuming 800 snaps... That's where the real problem lies.

Exactly.

I get the calls for using the draft on this, and I support it, but I'm still bullish on Lissemore. It's impossible to extrapolate results from lower snapcounts (stamina and freshness factor), but if you gave Lissemore the number of snaps that Calais Campbell had and assumed the same per-snap efficiency (again, an approach with flaws), this would have been your stat line:

72 tackles / 4.2 sacks / 12.7 qb hits / 29.6 pressures / 59.2 stops

Less 98. More 95.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Exactly.

I get the calls for using the draft on this, and I support it, but I'm still bullish on Lissemore. It's impossible to extrapolate results from lower snapcounts (stamina and freshness factor), but if you gave Lissemore the number of snaps that Calais Campbell had and assumed the same per-snap efficiency (again, an approach with flaws), this would have been your stat line:

72 tackles / 4.2 sacks / 12.7 qb hits / 29.6 pressures / 59.2 stops

Less 98. More 95.

Great analysis!

 

[21Savage]

OK...

Here's the Giants sacks/QB hits/QB pressures totals for 2011...

49/51/149

Here's the Cowboys...

43/50/192



Also keep in mind that the Giant defense faced 589 pass attempts, and the Cowboys 545.

That means the Giants created a QB Hit or QB Pressure about 34% of the time.

And the Cowboys?

44% of the time.

Here are a couple things to keep in mind...

The Cowboys pass rush isn't "mush" as several would like to infer.

Secondly you simply aren't going to create pressure every single pass attempt– it doesn't work like that.

And that's where pass defense comes into play and that's where the Cowboy defense truly comes up small.

Yeah, more pass rush would jim-dandy, but the pass defense needs to be improved (greatly) for this team to be a consistent winner. The yards-per-attempt they give up is way too high.

I think the most important difference between both defenses that you didn't mention is that Rob Ryan incorporates the 3 man pass rush into a way more significant amount of his packages than the Giants do. They pretty much rush 4 or above on every play.

 

[BlindFaith]

Our problem was the scheme more than anything.

I think there's some real truth in that. Yet Ryan still gets a pass on the year for the most part. He did nut up on the Eagles game, but other than that, meh.

Teams really seemed to have him pegged around mid season. Maybe it had to do with not having enough time to install everything. Maybe some guys on defense just didn't get it. That was the general take when Wade was here. He had to dumb down the defense. Maybe it was dumbed down last year as well.

Question is, who were the dumb players and are they still here? Lets just hope they were Newman, James and Brookings, cause that's all we've replaced so far. Other than adding Pool, but I'd hope that Elam at least knew the defense even if he was below average talent wise.

That's why I'm not sold on Spears and Hatcher at ends. Not really sold on Ratliff in the middle either.

 

[boysfanindc]

Dallas was 7th in sacks in the NFL tied with SF with 42 sacks

You are correct, I think that even more represents that this argument about how awful our pass rush was more confusing.

I guess everything is talked about in the extreme, is there room for improvement? always, but we were not chicken liver last year.

If Carr is what we think he is and if Lee and Carter give us the youth and speed to get deeper in coverage and force to the QB to look at second and third options, the pass rush statistics, I believe will improve greatly even if we do nothing more.

As I said including in that mix a DE who can get in the backfield 3 or 4 times a game has the potential to make us down right dangerous.

 

[BlindFaith]

OK...

Here's the Giants sacks/QB hits/QB pressures totals for 2011...

49/51/149

Here's the Cowboys...

43/50/192



Also keep in mind that the Giant defense faced 589 pass attempts, and the Cowboys 545.

That means the Giants created a QB Hit or QB Pressure about 34% of the time.

And the Cowboys?

44% of the time.

Here are a couple things to keep in mind...

The Cowboys pass rush isn't "mush" as several would like to infer.

Secondly you simply aren't going to create pressure every single pass attempt– it doesn't work like that.

And that's where pass defense comes into play and that's where the Cowboy defense truly comes up small.

Yeah, more pass rush would jim-dandy, but the pass defense needs to be improved (greatly) for this team to be a consistent winner. The yards-per-attempt they give up is way too high.

The Giants defense was decimated with injuries, until the last 4 games or so.

Compare the numbers of our last four and their last four.

 

[BlindFaith]

Dallas was 7th in sacks in the NFL tied with SF with 42 sacks

The issue is, we had one guy get almost half of them by himself.

You need to represent a threat from different areas or teams can game plan around your lone strength, in our case, Mr Ware.

Who else would an offense be wary of? Ratliff?

And Ryan didn't use Lee as a blitzer, for whatever reason.

We have NO ONE to get to the passer aside from Ware.

 

[Doomsday101]

You are correct, I think that even more represents that this argument about how awful our pass rush was more confusing.

I guess everything is talked about in the extreme, is there room for improvement? always, but we were not chicken liver last year.

If Carr is what we think he is and if Lee and Carter give us the youth and speed to get deeper in coverage and force to the QB to look at second and third options, the pass rush statistics, I believe will improve greatly even if we do nothing more.

As I said including in that mix a DE who can get in the backfield 3 or 4 times a game has the potential to make us down right dangerous.

I'm all for improving where ever we can. DL in my view needs an upgrade so that we may get more inside push as well as sacks. I'm not opposed to it at all but some act as if Dallas was one of the wrost pass rushing team in the league I don't consider being ranked 7th as poor. But again yes improve where we can.

 

[Doomsday101]

The issue is, we had one guy get almost half of them by himself.

You need to represent a threat from different areas or teams can game plan around your lone strength, in our case, Mr Ware.

Who else would an offense be wary of? Ratliff?

And Ryan didn't use Lee as a blitzer, for whatever reason.

We have NO ONE to get to the passer aside from Ware.

Ware clearly get the majority of them I have not seen anyone say other wise and yes getting someone who can add to that would be great. I think the problem is more on the inside than the outside. Right now we bring outside pressure and the QB just steps up into the pocket allowing the OT to ride the OLB behind the QB. Eliminate the pocket the QB is flushed from the pocket and now has to contend with the outside pressure.

As I mentioned I do want to see imporvment but lets don't act as if Dallas is poor pass rushing team they ranked 7th in the league that is not chop liver

 

[BlindFaith]

I'm all for improving where ever we can. DL in my view needs an upgrade so that we may get more inside push as well as sacks. I'm not opposed to it at all but some act as if Dallas was one of the wrost pass rushing team in the league I don't consider being ranked 7th as poor. But again yes improve where we can.

Its poor when you consider we have the best OLB since LT.

 

[BlindFaith]

Ware clearly get the majority of them I have not seen anyone say other wise and yes getting someone who can add to that would be great. I think the problem is more on the inside than the outside. Right now we bring outside pressure and the QB just steps up into the pocket allowing the OT to ride the OLB behind the QB. Eliminate the pocket the QB is flushed from the pocket and now has to contend with the outside pressure.

As I mentioned I do want to see imporvment but lets don't act as if Dallas is poor pass rushing team they ranked 7th in the league that is not chop liver

We have one filet mignon and the rest IS chop liver.

 

[Doomsday101]

We have one filet mignon and the rest IS chop liver.

That is your opinion, we were 7th in the NFL that is not bad. It can be better I have yet to see anyone say they would not like to get better. But running around saying we have no pass rush is stupid.

 

[BlindFaith]

That is your opinion, we were 7th in the NFL that is not bad. It can be better I have yet to see anyone say they would not like to get better. But running around saying we have no pass rush is stupid.

Thinking Coleman, Spears and Hatcher are even average pass rushers is stupid.

We'll see come draft time how stupid I look.

 

[boysfanindc]

JPP of the Giants had only 3 less sacks then Ware I believe, I guess they suck also because they only have 1 T-Bone.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

I will try to explain what he is saying in a better way. The way he is trying to explain it doesn't make sense.
I believe that he is saying that the problem isn't our LB's, it's our DL. Correct me if that's not what you mean.
He may have a point. I think getting a NT and moving Ratliff to DE would help our defense out a ton.

But again.. that's the same thing everyone else is already saying.

 

[Doomsday]

The problem was our corners inability to cover anyone down the stretch. How many times did they get strong pressure on Eli only to watch him toss up a pass to a WIDE OPEN receiver in that first game? What good is pressure if you dont have coverage behind it?

 

[Doomsday101]

The problem was our corners inability to cover anyone down the stretch. How many times did they get strong pressure on Eli only to watch him toss up a pass to a WIDE OPEN receiver in that first game? What good is pressure if you dont have coverage behind it?

I agree. To claim all we need to do is get another pass rusher and the defense is fixed was not true. We needed to upgrade Newman spot and hopefully Carr as well as the addition of Pool can give us better play in the secondary.

 

[Doomsday101]

Thinking Coleman, Spears and Hatcher are even average pass rushers is stupid.

We'll see come draft time how stupid I look.

Who has said we should not upgrade on the DL? Claiming we have no pass rush is stupid. You don't rank 7th in the league with a poor pass rush. Does not mean we can't get better nor does it mean we should not add to the DL.

You want to run around claiming we have none that is your business.