The Pass Rush/Offensive Line Thread

[jobberone]

So, can we finally bury the "run the ball and stop the run" theory?

If you're going to start the game then I'll play. I don't remember anyone saying that passing in this league isn't the most important thing along with stopping the pass.

Where people have taken issue with you is your saying running the ball and stopping the run isn't important at all. Some of us totally disagree with you. There are times you have to be able to run the ball esp in short yardage around the goal line. There are other times as well.

Also there is no dominant running team in the NFL and hasn't been one for some time. So you're going to get fairly average results for all teams when it comes to running the ball and therefore stopping the run when you look at the stats. Your conclusion is that it must not be important esp when you look at the stats for passing the ball, scoring (which is mostly by the pass) and stopping scoring which is also mostly by the pass. No one I've seen disagrees with you on those points.

We all know its a passing league. That's why most of us are screaming for a better OL, a better pass rush and some decent DBs. Some of us just don't believe either the running game or STs aren't important as well.

 

[Doomsday101]

If you're going to start the game then I'll play. I don't remember anyone saying that passing in this league isn't the most important thing along with stopping the pass.

Where people have taken issue with you is your saying running the ball and stopping the run isn't important at all. Some of us totally disagree with you. There are times you have to be able to run the ball esp in short yardage around the goal line. There are other times as well.

Also there is no dominant running team in the NFL and hasn't been one for some time. So you're going to get fairly average results for all teams when it comes to running the ball and therefore stopping the run when you look at the stats. Your conclusion is that it must not be important esp when you look at the stats for passing the ball, scoring (which is mostly by the pass) and stopping scoring which is also mostly by the pass. No one I've seen disagrees with you on those points.

We all know its a passing league. That's why most of us are screaming for a better OL, a better pass rush and some decent DBs. Some of us just don't believe either the running game or STs aren't important as well.

I agree. If the run had no importance teams would not attempt the runs and defense would not move guys up to stop the run. Passing clearly is a very important part of the NFL. NY threw the ball 40 times and yet ran it 28 times why run it that much if it means so little?

 

[Idgit]

If you're going to start the game then I'll play. I don't remember anyone saying that passing in this league isn't the most important thing along with stopping the pass.

Where people have taken issue with you is your saying running the ball and stopping the run isn't important at all. Some of us totally disagree with you. There are times you have to be able to run the ball esp in short yardage around the goal line. There are other times as well.

Also there is no dominant running team in the NFL and hasn't been one for some time. So you're going to get fairly average results for all teams when it comes to running the ball and therefore stopping the run when you look at the stats. Your conclusion is that it must not be important esp when you look at the stats for passing the ball, scoring (which is mostly by the pass) and stopping scoring which is also mostly by the pass. No one I've seen disagrees with you on those points.

We all know its a passing league. That's why most of us are screaming for a better OL, a better pass rush and some decent DBs. Some of us just don't believe either the running game or STs aren't important as well.

If you're going to play, play right. The argument isn't that running isn't important. It's that doing it better than your opponent doesn't correlate highly with winning. The argument really isn't that hard to follow.

 

[Doomsday101]

If you're going to play, play right. The argument isn't that running isn't important. It's that doing it better than your opponent doesn't correlate highly with winning. The argument really isn't that hard to follow.

And I think both are important and I think most coaches see it that way or else they would not run the ball. If it helps to move defensive players around then it has an effect on the passing game. Granted some teams rely more on this than others but. In my view running and passing go hand in hand and again for some teams running plays a bigger part.

 

[JerryFan]

This game, and really the last ten or so years in general, has shown that fortune and lucky bounces play as big a role as talent and execution in who wins. About ten different significant 50/50 or worse plays went New York's way tonight, and if even one or two doesnt they lose. he same can be said of most title games in recent memory.

Kind of depressing actually.

thats how the last part of their season went. look how many fumbles that just bounced right back to their guys, or DB's flat out just dropping easy INT's from Eli (not only Newman). sometimes you just can't beat luck and the Giants definitely had it with them.

 

[visionary]

You can be so-so in the secondary (San Francisco) as long as your pass rush is elite.

Outside of Carlos Rogers, that SF secondary is remarkably average. However, that pass rush was just downright dirty. That, and solid offensive line play, is how they ended up in the NFC Championship game despite not having super-talent in the secondary or at the skill positions.

Dashon Goldson went from being a consensus JAG on this board to somehow a rueage "we should have signed him" guy. How? Because the 49ers front seven is absolutely disgusting up front...just flat out nasty!

I want Mario Williams and David DeCastro. The rest will take care of itself.

something you and I can agree on

 

[jobberone]

If you're going to play, play right. The argument isn't that running isn't important. It's that doing it better than your opponent doesn't correlate highly with winning. The argument really isn't that hard to follow.

Now just where did I say or imply that you had to run the ball better than your opponent? I said you need to be able to run the ball reasonably well in short yardage particularly around the goal line. I will add that you must run the ball effectively for want of a better word.

 

[visionary]

I do think much of the time teams create their own luck by guys hustling to the ball. Drop balls by the other team is just a lack of execution on their part.

On a couple of Giants fumbles in that game because their guys were not just standing around and keeping their heads in the game they were able to come up with recoveries that could have hurt them had they not done so.

i agree

sometimes "you just get lucky" and while that does happen more often than not "you make your own luck"

as an analogy, in baseball, hardly ever will you see a bad fielder make a spectacular catch, it is always the good/great ones that do it

"luck" can happen once or twice but when someone (or a team) is "consistently lucky" it is more than that

it is preparation
it is hard work

 

[burmafrd]

the winning points in the SB were scored by the run not the pass. so that is another thing to think about.

 

[Doomsday101]

i agree

sometimes "you just get lucky" and while that does happen more often than not "you make your own luck"

as an analogy, in baseball, hardly ever will you see a bad fielder make a spectacular catch, it is always the good/great ones that do it

"luck" can happen once or twice but when someone (or a team) is "consistently lucky" it is more than that

it is preparation
it is hard work

We clearly agree on this.

 

[tyke1doe]

Well, to Garrett's credit, he selected Tyron Smith. And he tried to infuse the line with young offensive line talent. You've got to give him that.

Now we need to fix the defensive line. We've got the toys. Now we need to beef up front, although if Trent Richardson drops, he's sure going to be tempting.

 

[casmith07]

Well, to Garrett's credit, he selected Tyron Smith. And he tried to infuse the line with young offensive line talent. You've got to give him that.

Now we need to fix the defensive line. We've got the toys. Now we need to beef up front, although if Trent Richardson drops, he's sure going to be tempting.

Unless Trent Richardson plans on putting on 100lbs and playing guard or NT, then no thanks.

 

[tyke1doe]

Unless Trent Richardson plans on putting on 100lbs and playing guard or NT, then no thanks.

:laugh2:

 

[Idgit]

And I think both are important and I think most coaches see it that way or else they would not run the ball. If it helps to move defensive players around then it has an effect on the passing game. Granted some teams rely more on this than others but. In my view running and passing go hand in hand and again for some teams running plays a bigger part.

Coaches run the ball because the running game is important. Ie, there are game situations where it's in your interest to run the ball. They do it when they've passed more effectively than the other guys already and don't want to risk a mistake, or when the down and distance makes it a smart thing to do. Or when they have a defense they can count on to make it hard for the other guys to pass effectively.

They don't do it just because they do it more effectively than the other guys, because doing it better doesn't make it appreciably more likely you're going to win. What leads to wins is passing well and stopping the pass well. Both a good running game and a bad one can satisfactorily set those conditions up.

 

[Doomsday101]

Coaches run the ball because the running game is important. Ie, there are game situations where it's in your interest to run the ball. They do it when they've passed more effectively than the other guys already and don't want to risk a mistake, or when the down and distance makes it a smart thing to do. Or when they have a defense they can count on to make it hard for the other guys to pass effectively.

They don't do it just because they do it more effectively than the other guys, because doing it better doesn't make it appreciably more likely you're going to win. What leads to wins is passing well and stopping the pass well. Both a good running game and a bad one can satisfactorily set those conditions up.

Playing good offense puts points on the board running and passing are part of what make an offense. For some teams running is a big part of their passing game it is what helps set up their passing game and without that they tend to stuggle. No one has said passing is not important or even critcal, heck even teams who are not great passing teams have to be effective in the passing game to win. There are teams Houston as an example where their running game is a very important part of their team without it they do not compete and earn a playoff spot