The rebuilding process

[Galian Beast]

David Arkin shouldnt be on any list of resources.

Leaving him out would have been disingenuous. The point isn't that he worked out, but that he was another investment on offense.

 

[xwalker]

I don't think we are disagreeing on anything. My point wasn't that they could have cleaned house. My point is that this wasn't the plan all along.

They did buy into what Rob Ryan promised them, and in hindsight, it cost us about three years. Claiborne's miss was extremely costly, but it made sense at the time. The whole Rob Ryan plan, made perfect sense at the time. And I think they believed in 2013, we were going to have a stellar defensive line with Ware, Ratliff, Spencer, and Hatcher. That never came to fruition, and in 2014, we simply didn't have the cap space or available players that weren't old to invest in.

Yes, it's all speculation on what which moves were due to Garrett and which moves were due to Jerry. I'm certain that drafting OLine high was Garrett's plan/influence. Jerry said himself that they didn't use 1st round pick on OL back in the Super Bowl years so he didn't think it was worth doing. Jerry went all of these years with that approach until Garrett convinced him otherwise.

 

[Galian Beast]

Yes, it's all speculation on what which moves were due to Garrett and which moves were due to Jerry. I'm certain that drafting OLine high was Garrett's plan/influence. Jerry said himself that they didn't use 1st round pick on OL back in the Super Bowl years so he didn't think it was worth doing. Jerry went all of these years with that approach until Garrett convinced him otherwise.

I think there was an organization wide acknowledgement that the oline needed to be rebuilt, but I don't think it was a huge priority as the results may suggest.

Martin wasn't the target this year, frederick wasn't last year..

 

[xwalker]

I think there was an organization wide acknowledgement that the oline needed to be rebuilt, but I don't think it was a huge priority as the results may suggest.

Martin wasn't the target this year, frederick wasn't last year..

They even tried to trade back into the 3rd round last year to get another Guard. Just because they were going BPA in the draft does not mean that OL was not a high priority. They did end up with them so it was obviously a reasonably high priority. They easily could have picked other players where they pick Fred and they could have traded down at the Martin pick or could have picked Jerry's favorite Manziel.

 

[Galian Beast]

They even tried to trade back into the 3rd round last year to get another Guard. Just because they were going BPA in the draft does not mean that OL was not a high priority. They did end up with them so it was obviously a reasonably high priority. They easily could have picked other players where they pick Fred and they could have traded down at the Martin pick or could have picked Jerry's favorite Manziel.

I just think you need to realize that we could have very easily come out of the last two drafts without linemen in the 1st rounds...

 

[xwalker]

I just think you need to realize that we could have very easily come out of the last two drafts without linemen in the 1st rounds...

How about discussing the facts of what did happen and not what might or might not have happened.
Fact:
Before Garrett there were Zero OL picked in the 1st round in the Jerry era.

Fact:
After Garrett became HC they have picked 3 OL in the 1st round in the Jerry era.

 

[Proximo]

Stopped reading after OP stated:

"There is this idea that Garrett had this master plan. I think we could recognize that no solid plan really existed."

Please bro. Please.

 

[Galian Beast]

How about discussing the facts of what did happen and not what might or might not have happened.
Fact:
Before Garrett there were Zero OL picked in the 1st round in the Jerry era.

Fact:
After Garrett became HC they have picked 3 OL in the 1st round in the Jerry era.

I think a lot that is circumstance.

You have to realize that you're looking at a fairly small sample here. Almost half that time we had pro bowl offensive line already...

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

Man get out of here with this mess!!!! You are still doubting Jason Garrett? He has said what his plan was and is for this team/organization too many times in interviews, you need to get on the ball fellow you are behind, and seem to be a hater because we do not have the HC, and players that you want us to go after

Somebody has been guzzling the

http://i47.***BLOCKED***/albums/f155/tacksharp/Miscellaneous2/Kool_Aid_blue.jpg

 

[xwalker]

I think a lot that is circumstance.

You have to realize that you're looking at a fairly small sample here. Almost half that time we had pro bowl offensive line already...

The OL was bad more years than it was good between the last Super Bowl and the beginning of Garrett's tenure as HC.

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

To say that Jason Garrett didnt have a plan is crazy. Every HC has a plan and a direction and wants to build and its all part of the process year after year. On the other hand, the limited few pro Garrett Kool Aid drunks that act as if Garrett had some tunnel vision grand master scheme and it all started with a rock solid commitment to drafting OL in the 1st round and now its all coming to fruition are in a la la land created by their own imaginations. I mean, does anybody think that we would have drafted Martin if Donald were still on the board at #16?

 

[Nightman]

I agree.

If you look at the 2012 draft, you can see that they gave Ryan what he wanted.

The issue is that Rob's defenses didn't perform like we thought they would. There were a ton of injuries behind that as well. And we then switched to a completely different scheme which is a 4-3 getting the D-Line upfield and a lot of zone coverage.

Claiborne was really good his rookie year, but that was under Ryan's scheme. We go to the Marinelli/Kiffin scheme and it's not a good fit for him. Carr didn't get much of a chance to play corner in 2012 because of the injuries, particularly at safety. And then we switch schemes. Wilber is more of a fit in a 3-4 and we missed out on Matt Johnson due to injuries. The only player that hit was Crawford.

But we did pretty well with the offensive players from that class. We got Dunbar and Beasley in UDFA and Hanna has now become a pretty good blocking TE.

I think Garrett's rebuilding process was about finding players that they felt were reliable off the field, leaders on their college teams and were coachable players. I think Flozell Adams was a good person, but his technique was terrible. It's not to say he is 'un-coachable', but I think Garrett would have avoided a player like him because he would be a player that wouldn't get better from coaching instruction, but more or less get better from experience and would just use his size and ahtleticism.

From there, I think Garrett envisioned that he would find the best assistant coaches he could (particularly position coaches) and work to develop these players.

I think Garrett saw that Ryan wasn't going to work and wanted Kiffin when he became available due to his time at Tampa with Kiffin. That turned everything sideways on defense because we now have different schemes and now the players, coaches and scouts have to adjust.

But I think that has been Garrett's process...finding players that were leaders on their college teams, were reliable and coachable so the coaching could improve the player's performance.






YR

Continuity with the coaching staff is one of the major factors in consistently making the playoffs. A good QB, a solid OL and being lucky with injuries are also big factors.

People laugh, but it is a 'process' and does take 'the RKGs' to buy in and then lead. Teams are so evenly matched that attitude and effort are often the deciding factors week to week.

 

[conner01]

i think fans get to wrapped up in fixing this or that. the draft is more about building the talent level of your team more than just buiklding any particular side of the ball. the "plan: is get good plyers, and if there is not a worthy player on defense to take you take an offensive player. we would all love to draft 5 or 6 defensive players but the odds of getting that many player on one side of the ball is slim. the odds of getting 5 or 6 solid picks whenyou open that up to all players is much better

 

[JoeKing]

OP talking out of his arse like he knows first hand about the Cowboys plans. Truth is you don't know jack. Unless you are part of the Cowboys inner circle, there is no way you could know what the Cowboys plan has been or will be. Sure we can see after the fact what they've done but that doesn't necessarily reveal what the plan was. Sometimes the players you want in the draft don't come your way. Or the player you are counting on gets hurt. There are many factors that can prevent a building plan from actually happening the way you want it. No matter what you hear coaches or executives say about "the building plan" they will never reveal to the public what that plan actually was. Your opinions about what that plan may have been is just speculation and you may as well be reading from a fairy tale because it will be just as valid. But you think you know something that nobody else knows... nobody cares what you think, Jabroni.

 

[JoeKing]

I sincerely have no clue what point the OP is trying to make, other than to reiterate things already posted about and said ad infinitum.

THIS!

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

OP talking out of his arse like he knows first hand about the Cowboys plans. Truth is you don't know jack. Unless you are part of the Cowboys inner circle, there is no way you could know what the Cowboys plan has been or will be. Sure we can see after the fact what they've done but that doesn't necessarily reveal what the plan was. Sometimes the players you want in the draft don't come your way. Or the player you are counting on gets hurt. There are many factors that can prevent a building plan from actually happening the way you want it. No matter what you hear coaches or executives say about "the building plan" they will never reveal to the public what that plan actually was. Your opinions about what that plan may have been is just speculation and you may as well be reading from a fair tale because it will be just as valid. But you think you know something that nobody else knows... nobody cares what you think, Jabroni.

This sounds like a post that coulda shoulda been said about all the pro Garrett crowd who think the grand plan is all going according to the mapped out step by step strategy of the Process as if they knew all the details in advance.

 

[JoeKing]

This sounds like a post that coulda shoulda been said about all the pro Garrett crowd who think the grand plan is all going according to the mapped out step by step strategy of the Process as if they knew all the details in advance.

I agree with that point too.

 

[texbumthelife]

This sounds like a post that coulda shoulda been said about all the pro Garrett crowd who think the grand plan is all going according to the mapped out step by step strategy of the Process as if they knew all the details in advance.

Considering the state of the team though, I think that's a little bit easier to buy into. It never goes 100% according to plan, but to try and absolve Garrett of any credit in the make-up of this team is just asinine and shows a clear agenda.

They're still sorely lacking in defensive talent and some of those gutless calls in the GB game show they're not reformed of that quite yet, but what Garrett got out of this team this year and the make-up of the roster as a whole is as much a credit as it is a detriment to his presence. Credit where its due. I have wanted Garrett gone for a few seasons, but I think he has a very bright future as long as he never has to call plays.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

II think Garrett should have committed to the 3-4 or switched to the 4-3 from the get go. That was three years off of Romo's career right off the bat.

I tend to disagree. Things change so often in the NFL.

A big reason why Garrett said he wanted to go to the 4-3 is that it is a simpler defense and with the new CBA allowing for less practice it made it harder to learn the complexities of the 3-4. He also felt that the new CBA made injuries more likely to occur and you needed to get players that weren't on your team earlier in the year to step in and take over and it would be easier if the defense was simpler.

And then the read-option was introduced in 2012 and the 3-4 is generally a weaker defense against it because the principles of the 3-4 are more read and react instead of go upfield.

I think it was certainly a mistake to continue with the 3-4, but I think it was an honest mistake and we have the benefit of hindsight.





YR

 

[Galian Beast]

I tend to disagree. Things change so often in the NFL.

A big reason why Garrett said he wanted to go to the 4-3 is that it is a simpler defense and with the new CBA allowing for less practice it made it harder to learn the complexities of the 3-4. He also felt that the new CBA made injuries more likely to occur and you needed to get players that weren't on your team earlier in the year to step in and take over and it would be easier if the defense was simpler.

And then the read-option was introduced in 2012 and the 3-4 is generally a weaker defense against it because the principles of the 3-4 are more read and react instead of go upfield.

I think it was certainly a mistake to continue with the 3-4, but I think it was an honest mistake and we have the benefit of hindsight.





YR

I'm not saying it wasn't an honest mistake, but I do think it was a mistake that they never really addressed the weaknesses of that scheme while it was here. We were never really able to stop the pass.