TO is owning & So is Quinn

[Hostile]

It's not a cop out. It's the truth. Unless the truth is now considered a cop out.

My mind isn't changed. It is a cop out. Good WRs have played on bad teams and produced for decades.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

My mind isn't changed. It is a cop out. Good WRs have played on bad teams and produced for decades.

Have those bad teams produced championships?

If not it's a moot point. But if that good WR was on a good team, maybe he would have helped that "good" team become a "great" team.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

Have those bad teams produced championships?

If not it's a moot point. But if that good WR was on a good team, maybe he would have helped that "good" team become a "great" team.

How many times, exactly, has TO turned a good team into a great team or a great team into a championship team? And it's not a moot point. Your contention was that TO wasn't producing cause he was on a bad team. The fact that Hostile pointed out debunks that claim. Loads of great WR's have played on piss poor teams and produced.

He pointed out Calvin Johnson as one example. Boldin produced in Arizona before they were even decent, and before Larry Fitz arrived. Cris Carter produced for some lousy Minny teams. Antonio Bryant produced for a piss poor Bucs team last year who changed QBs like people change underwear.

So the fact that TO is playing on a bad team shouldn't keep him from producing if he's still as great as he once was. The simple fact is that he isn't as great as he once was. He's still a solid player, better than others and not nearly as good as some others, but he's no longer the guy he was.

And frankly he was never that missing piece, get you over the hump, turn you into a championship team player that so many try and claim he is.

I like TO. I think he's one of the best to ever play but for years now I've listened to people say "TO is the missing piece. TO makes your team a championship team."

How is that exactly? The dude has played on exactly ZERO championship teams so I don't see how he makes a team all that much better.

This team with TO last year was 9-7. His first year with us we were 9-7. Now we had a wonderful ride in between where we were 13-3 and that was great but what exactly did having him do that makes us so much better?

So you're saying if we had him this year we'd be a better team. Well we're 7-3 right now and unless something really pathetic happens we'll have at least 9 wins this year so how is this team any worse off without him? They only won 9 games two out of the 3 years he was here and if we do that again how are we worse off?

Also lets factor in the chance that we have a legit shot to win 10 or 11 games. Then how are we a better team with him?


Again I love TO. I think he's a great player. I think he gets a really bad rap sometimes, but I also understand that he brings it on himself to a certain degree cause he just doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut and keep himself out of some of those headaches, but I don't see where he made us so much better.

Some people act like this team is 3-7 instead of 7-3 simply because we don't have TO anymore.

And, btw, he is not anywhere near twice as good as Miles anymore. Over his career? Well no doubt. Even more than twice as good over a career. But today, right now, as both players stand? No.

Miles has better stats this year despite not starting the whole season, as TO has, and with Miles being the defacto #2 WR while TO is the unquestioned #1 in Buffalo.

No way is TO still twice as good as Miles.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

How many times, exactly, has TO turned a good team into a great team or a great team into a championship team?

Well Philly got to the Super Bowl with him, so that's one.

And it's not a moot point. Your contention was that TO wasn't producing cause he was on a bad team. The fact that Hostile pointed out debunks that claim. Loads of great WR's have played on piss poor teams and produced.

Again, I am not saying they don't produce on bad teams. My point is that if they can produce on a bad team, they would make a good team better.

He pointed out Calvin Johnson as one example. Boldin produced in Arizona before they were even decent, and before Larry Fitz arrived. Cris Carter produced for some lousy Minny teams. Antonio Bryant produced for a piss poor Bucs team last year who changed QBs like people change underwear.

Again, my point stands. If they were on good teams, they may have had a better chance at being a championship team. Do you deny that these players would make any team, including the Cowboys (in their day)a better team?

So the fact that TO is playing on a bad team shouldn't keep him from producing if he's still as great as he once was. The simple fact is that he isn't as great as he once was. He's still a solid player, better than others and not nearly as good as some others, but he's no longer the guy he was.

I pretty confident that nowhere in this thread did I say he was still the guy he once was. My point is and has been from the beginning, that he is way better than the guy we replaced him with and just going on last years stats alone in which he led this team in TD receptions, proves my point is valid.

And frankly he was never that missing piece, get you over the hump, turn you into a championship team player that so many try and claim he is.

Never said he was THE answer. But he is certainly closer to the answer than Roy Williams.

I like TO. I think he's one of the best to ever play but for years now I've listened to people say "TO is the missing piece. TO makes your team a championship team."

How is that exactly? The dude has played on exactly ZERO championship teams so I don't see how he makes a team all that much better.

Again I reference Philly.

This team with TO last year was 9-7. His first year with us we were 9-7. Now we had a wonderful ride in between where we were 13-3 and that was great but what exactly did having him do that makes us so much better?

Again it goes back to what got him run out of town. He decided to make an issue of his involvement or lack of it public. That doesn't change the fact that he was right. He just is a drama queen who can't help himself.

So you're saying if we had him this year we'd be a better team. Well we're 7-3 right now and unless something really pathetic happens we'll have at least 9 wins this year so how is this team any worse off without him? They only won 9 games two out of the 3 years he was here and if we do that again how are we worse off?

If the NFL was about being mediocre then I would concur with you, but it's about getting better. If we had the production from his replacement that we had from him last year we might be undefeated. Maybe, maybe not. We lost three games. The first two by a combined total of ten points. Do you think that if Roy would have been what we are paying him to be we may have pulled either of those first two out?

As for the GB game, defenses figured out that Roy doesn't demand the attention Miles does and so they turned coverage his way, shutting him down for the most part and Roy STILL can't excel. And we lost.

Also lets factor in the chance that we have a legit shot to win 10 or 11 games. Then how are we a better team with him?

Remember when we went 13-3 and got beat in the playoffs in the first round? Were we a better team than the Giants that year? I think when you answer that, you will have your answer.

Again I love TO. I think he's a great player. I think he gets a really bad rap sometimes, but I also understand that he brings it on himself to a certain degree cause he just doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut and keep himself out of some of those headaches, but I don't see where he made us so much better.

Most of that I agree with. But you cannot ignore the impact he had. Again, how do you ignore the team leader in the one category that matters most?

Some people act like this team is 3-7 instead of 7-3 simply because we don't have TO anymore.

No one has said that nor even acted like that. At least I haven't.

And, btw, he is not anywhere near twice as good as Miles anymore. Over his career? Well no doubt. Even more than twice as good over a career. But today, right now, as both players stand? No.

Miles has better stats this year despite not starting the whole season, as TO has, and with Miles being the defacto #2 WR while TO is the unquestioned #1 in Buffalo.

No way is TO still twice as good as Miles.

How many QBs has TO had this year? How about Head Coaches? Do we really want to go there?

 

[joseephuss]

Again, I am not saying they don't produce on bad teams. My point is that if they can produce on a bad team, they would make a good team better.

He isn't producing on the bad team this year. He wasn't producing with Dallas at the end of last year. I know your response will be "what is Roy doing?" and that is besides the point. It is about the entire offense. They are a better offense this season than last season despite what has happened the last two games.

 

[Hostile]

Have those bad teams produced championships?

If not it's a moot point. But if that good WR was on a good team, maybe he would have helped that "good" team become a "great" team.

Holy buckets of paint. If you want my opinion on something ask a decent question. That's just plain silly to even ask.

 

[Hostile]

Your contention was that TO wasn't producing cause he was on a bad team. The fact that Hostile pointed out debunks that claim. Loads of great WR's have played on piss poor teams and produced.

He pointed out Calvin Johnson as one example. Boldin produced in Arizona before they were even decent, and before Larry Fitz arrived. Cris Carter produced for some lousy Minny teams. Antonio Bryant produced for a piss poor Bucs team last year who changed QBs like people change underwear.

So the fact that TO is playing on a bad team shouldn't keep him from producing if he's still as great as he once was. The simple fact is that he isn't as great as he once was. He's still a solid player, better than others and not nearly as good as some others, but he's no longer the guy he was.

Can I get a Bingo?

 

[Cajuncowboy]

He isn't producing on the bad team this year. He wasn't producing with Dallas at the end of last year. I know your response will be "what is Roy doing?" and that is besides the point. It is about the entire offense. They are a better offense this season than last season despite what has happened the last two games.

That was regarding Hos's post about "other" wrs on bad teams. And how can it be besides the point when Roy is the player who replaced TO?

 

[Cajuncowboy]

Holy buckets of paint. If you want my opinion on something ask a decent question. That's just plain silly to even ask.

Umm, it was a decent question. You mentioned all of these WRs who produced yet were on bad teams. The ultimate goal is to win a championship. So why is that not a decent response to your post?

In another post I pointed out TO's impact on philly during their Super Bowl season as support of my position.

Maybe you are just a bit touchy on the whole TO thing.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

Can I get a Bingo?

Not without reading the response.

 

[joseephuss]

That was regarding Hos's post about "other" wrs on bad teams. And how can it be besides the point when Roy is the player who replaced TO?

Again Roy is not who replaced TO. That is an over simplification of what happened. Roy, Austin, Felix, Martellus, Choice and so on have replaced TO. It was never supposed to be one person replacing TO's production. It was the whole offense.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

Again Roy is not who replaced TO. That is an over simplification of what happened. Roy, Austin, Felix, Martellus, Choice and so on have replaced TO. It was never supposed to be one person replacing TO's production. It was the whole offense.

Now that's just factually incorrect. You don't pay a guy 45 million to simply be a small part of the overall offense and you know it.

Austin was a nice surprise for a four game stretch, but has pretty much disappeared over the last two games. And if you have to have five guys replace one guy, what does that tell you about the guy you replaced?

 

[Hostile]

Umm, it was a decent question. You mentioned all of these WRs who produced yet were on bad teams. The ultimate goal is to win a championship. So why is that not a decent response to your post?

In another post I pointed out TO's impact on philly during their Super Bowl season as support of my position.

Maybe you are just a bit touchy on the whole TO thing.

Get back to me when TO wins a championship.

Not without reading the response.

I read it and didn't deem it worth my time. He said exactly what I think. Good WRs produce on bad teams all the time. Owens isn't other than one good game per year.

Using Buffalo is a bad team as an excuse for his poor play was a cop out, is a cop out, and will always be a cop out.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

Get back to me when TO wins a championship.


I read it and didn't deem it worth my time. He said exactly what I think. Good WRs produce on bad teams all the time. Owens isn't other than one good game per year.

Using Buffalo is a bad team as an excuse for his poor play was a cop out, is a cop out, and will always be a cop out.

Wow! So let me get you on this.

A WR who produces on a bad team, would not make a good team better. Right?

Because that is what you are saying by stating that it wouldn't have an impact on us. Would you take Calvin Johnson over Roy on this team? Would he make us a better team?

 

[joseephuss]

Now that's just factually incorrect. You don't pay a guy 45 million to simply be a small part of the overall offense and you know it.

Austin was a nice surprise for a four game stretch, but has pretty much disappeared over the last two games. And if you have to have five guys replace one guy, what does that tell you about the guy you replaced?

It tells me that there has been a change in philosophy in the offense. Instead of having to force feed the ball to one guy to appease his ego they are working to spread the ball around and be a more efficient offense. Sounds like a good decision to me and also seems to be working.

Austin has not disappeared. It would be silly to expect him to produce at the level he did over those 4 games. He set a team record for goodness sake. It would be impossible for him to do that every week. He came through when needed in the last game. They can't all be pretty wins.

Ideally you hope that when you invest heavily in a player that they give you what you pay for. Realistically you do what you have to in order to win. If that means that Roy is not the #1 guy and big number guy, so be it. You don't force feed him the ball to justify his contract. That is what they were doing and had to do with TO around. They don't with Roy.

 

[joseephuss]

Wow! So let me get you on this.

A WR who produces on a bad team, would not make a good team better. Right?

Because that is what you are saying by stating that it wouldn't have an impact on us. Would you take Calvin Johnson over Roy on this team? Would he make us a better team?

That is apples and donuts. Johnson is producing on a bad team while TO is not. Johnson is healthy for your team and TO is not.

 

[Hostile]

Wow! So let me get you on this.

A WR who produces on a bad team, would not make a good team better. Right?

Because that is what you are saying by stating that it wouldn't have an impact on us. Would you take Calvin Johnson over Roy on this team? Would he make us a better team?

The question I responded to that caused you to reply to me was concerning why people do not take into account that TO plays on a bad team.

That is a cop out. The rest of this fan dance doesn't interest me in the least. Good WRs can and do produce on bad football teams all the time. Bringing up that Buffalo is a bad football team as some kind of evidence that TO is a victim of circumstance is a cop out. I stand by that and will not budge.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

It tells me that there has been a change in philosophy in the offense. Instead of having to force feed the ball to one guy to appease his ego they are working to spread the ball around and be a more efficient offense. Sounds like a good decision to me and also seems to be working.

Austin has not disappeared. It would be silly to expect him to produce at the level he did over those 4 games. He set a team record for goodness sake. It would be impossible for him to do that every week. He came through when needed in the last game. They can't all be pretty wins.

Ideally you hope that when you invest heavily in a player that they give you what you pay for. Realistically you do what you have to in order to win. If that means that Roy is not the #1 guy and big number guy, so be it. You don't force feed him the ball to justify his contract. That is what they were doing and had to do with TO around. They don't with Roy.

Actually there was criticism just last week about trying to force the ball to Roy. Trying to get get him in on plays is one thing, but not to the point where you are forcing it.

With TO there were things that he could do that Roy doesn't seem to be able to do. He hardly is ever used in a shift or end around play. TO asked to be more involved in the offense and he was right about it.

But when have that many players trying to take up the slack for one guy who was cut, imagine what you would have if he was still here and just producing at the same level.

And I am not taking anything away from Austin. I think he is the best WR on this team. And his record is fantastic. But Roy does nothing to compliment him and you HAVE to have that guy who can do that so the other guys you mention can be successful.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

The question I responded to that caused you to reply to me was concerning why people do not take into account that TO plays on a bad team.

That is a cop out. The rest of this fan dance doesn't interest me in the least. Good WRs can and do produce on bad football teams all the time. Bringing up that Buffalo is a bad football team as some kind of evidence that TO is a victim of circumstance is a cop out. I stand by that and will not budge.

You are welcome to your opinion Hos, as I have not said anything different, that good WRs can produce on bad teams. With that said, you also have to factor in the fact that a bad team can and does restrict what the impact of a player can be.

I have said that a good WR who is producing on a bad team would make this team better. I also said that the replacement for TO has not provided what TO provided on the field and that had he still been here, we would be a better team offensively for it.

Again, this would go for any WR who could produce at that level, not just TO.

And FWIW, I am not that big of a TO fan.

 

[McCordsville Cowboy]

TO cant throw the ball to himself.

When people start saying he fell off last year, its blamed on him. I never understood that. He doesnt throw himself the ball or call the plays to use him as decoy deep. Sure he had the case of the dropsies from time to time but his TD's and BIG PLAYS made up for it.

When he was involved early and often, we usually won. Its pretty obvious, we arent as good without him. You ask ANY team, especially the NFC east teams and they will tell you the offense is more predictable and less impressive without him.

Our WR scare no ONE.