Tom Landry's Success - System or Players?

[TellerMorrow34]

I'll go with 3 as it's the most like answer to what I want to say.

I believe it was almost equal with a slight edge to the system. I don't want to say 4 because to me that sounds like it was a lot more the system and I don't believe it was a lot more, just a slight lean toward the system.

 

[KJJ]

I would have to go with #2 because to have 20 consecutive winning seasons you have to credit the players more than the system. Opponents are going to eventually catch up to what you're doing and for a system to be successful for more than 2 decades you have to keep adding great players and the Cowboys did through some excellent drafts. Even Landry credited the 75 draft that produced Randy White, Thomas Henderson and Bob Breunig for helping the Cowboys reach SB X. The Cowboys missed the playoffs for the first time in years in 1974 and it appeared to some that the team was in decline. Of the Cowboys 19 draft selections in 1975 12 made the team. Dorsett came along 2 years later and it immediately led to the Cowboys 2nd championship in 77.

Landry's system wasn't working very well during the early 60's until he got better players, His system eventually had to be dumbed down. Landry's system wasn't getting the Cowboys over the hump until Staubach came along and he wasn't a system QB. Landry had to adjust to Staubach's scrambling style. Landry didn't like Staubach running but he allowed him to do it because he made plays. Landry allowed Dorsett to do his thing and run to daylight even though in the beginning he wanted him to run where the play was designed. Many of the players the Cowboys had would have been successful in other systems due to their talent.

It didn't matter what system you put Bob Lilly in it was still going to take 2 guys to block him. Landry tried turning Randy White into an LB and it wasn't working regardless of the system. Once he allowed White to play the position he was comfortable with he became a HOF player. Like all great coaches Landry adapted to the strengths of his players even if it didn't quite fit his system. Some will point to Landry's system as his downfall during the mid to late 80's. A lot of what he was doing was outdated but he also didn't have the great players anymore. Once Staubach retired the Cowboys reverted back to coming up short in big games every year until the team went into deep decline.

 

[Chuck 54]

System allowed him to make the playoffs 17 consecutive years. He was a system guy and believed he could win with anyone's players.

However, players are needed for super bowl trophies....his system allowed him to win two super bowls with very different teams, not completely different.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Tough to tell because you didn't have Free Agency back then and it was more difficult to see how those players would perform on other teams. Almost all of them didn't do well elsewhere, although that could be credited to them being past their prime. He did have some key players that Jimmy took over like Irvin, Tuinea, Newton and Jeffcoat.

I think it was a combination of everything. And you have to give Landry credit, many coaches would not be open minded to using a computer based system to scout other teams and to scout players. Landry was all for it and the Cowboys were WELL ahead of the curve on using technology to improve the team.

Defensively, he reminds me a bit of Jim Boeheim. Both coaches came up with a defense they wanted to use and after awhile the defense was hardly new or innovative to their respective leagues. But, they knew how to run that defense better than anybody and knew exactly what type of players would fit the system and how to coach around that player's weakness.

Offensively, he popularized the use of the shotgun as a passing formation and had a ton of gadget plays.

I also think his ability to develop talent gets overlooked. No lack of discipline on Landry's teams. The O-Line is a good example. They had to stand up before every play, let all of the motioning go thru and were almost always a well disciplined unit. And it took foresight to turn Bob Hayes into a WR (he was a collegiate RB) and Rayfield Wright into an offensive tackle (he was a defensive player). Everson Walls didn't even start his senior year at Grambling. So, there had to be some plain ole coach teaching a player and figuring out how to make the most out of that player's ability.






YR

 

[KJJ]

System allowed him to make the playoffs 17 consecutive years. He was a system guy and believed he could win with anyone's players.

However, players are needed for super bowl trophies....his system allowed him to win two super bowls with very different teams, not completely different.

I believe it was the "players" that allowed him to make the playoffs 17 consecutive years. To give a system more credit than the players who ran it is taking away from the greatness of the players. Landry had a great system he was an innovator but he didn't start having winning seasons or making the playoffs until he got better players to run his system. The West Coast offense is a great system but not everyone has had the kind of success Bill Walsh did with Montana, Jerry Rice and rest of the talent he assembled in SF Kiffin built one of the best defenses ever with his Tampa 2 defense that featured Warren Sapp, John Lynch, Derrick Brooks, Simeon Rice and Ronde Barber but with the Cowboys that scheme turned their defense into the 3rd worst in NFL history last season. Opponents will eventually adapt to a scheme if it's around long enough so it takes great players to keep having success with it year after year.

Jimmy was no innovator or an X's and O's coach like Landry he assembled a great group of dominate players on both sides of the ball and lined them up. There wasn't anything complicated about the Cowboys offense under Jimmy everyone knew what they were going to do they just couldn't stop it. Landry may have had more success winning championships had he not made things so complicated for his players. Most of what he did was designed to beat Lombardi's Packers. Once Landry began winning in 1966 he couldn't win in the playoffs. Landry never beat Lombardi who ran Landry's Flex defense but a simpler offense. When the two met it was really a comparison of offense to offense and Lombardi's simpler scheme won everytime.

Landry's complicated scheme led to confusion and a number of critical mistakes one being Meredith's int in the end zone vs the Packers in the 1966 championship game. The entire time Landry faced Lombardi he never adjusted. Lombardi always had his players run to daylight rather than to a designed hole. Landry didn't believe in that until Tony Dorsett came along. Landry's offense was too complicated he had his OL doing all kinds of shifting. Landry's complicated scheme resulted in a lot of mental mistakes in big games that Terry Bradshaw said helped his Steelers win those 2 SB's against the Cowboys. Landry was a great HC but he was a creature of habit who was slow to change and it eventually caught up with him in the mid to late 80's.

 

[LatinMind]

It was the organization IMO. Dallas was ahead of its time in terms of scouting and facilities and structure. There was a show on NFLN on this. Interesting stuff. Im sure landry played a part. But Dallas as an organization was doing stuff nobody had thought bout doing in those days

 

[SilverStarCowboy]

Systems don't work without Players.

 

[CF74]

Systems don't work without Players.

This.. Although Landry was quite innovative with his new ideas, having the right pieces got the ball rolling...

 

[Plankton]

It's #3, but I would place a big amount on Landry's coaching and schemes.

20 consecutive winning seasons basically transcended three groups of personnel, all having gone to at least a conference championship game. To do this with varying groups of personnel is impressive, and a sign of great schemes and coaching. The team went from a passing team in the mid 1960s to a run heavy scheme in the early 70s back to a pass heavy attack in the late 70s and early 80s, and had very successful offenses. The defense endured as a top 10 quality unit for 20 years with a wide range of personnel as well. Landry was the constant.

 

[JackWagon]

this is like looking at a complex problem and thinking "wow, only two factors here" heck no. You had a comepletely different era, a completely different mind set, so many factors played into Landrys success instead of just players and systems. Look how the game was played back than compared to now. Look at what you were able to get away with back than compared to now. What we didnt have back than, what was allowed. How much credit does his assitant coaches get? How many bad or good drafts did dallas have back than? What was Landrys control in the Dallas organization? We know his emphasis an was belief was in the defense, what offensive genuises did he go against? Did he ever face a "greatest show on turf" offense? What offenses worked best agianst his defense? There is so much more to look at when Landry coached. Why did the Steelers always have Dallas' number back than?

Steelers had everyone's number ... but i think it was one of the first places the players were systematically put on steroids. Quite successfully.

 

[burmafrd]

The System is what allows everything to come together and work right. Not surprising who in this thread cannot figure that out.

The Steelers did not dominate us- just one or two plays in each SB would have seen us win. That and blind referees (or paid off ones, take your pick)

and of course the DROP

 

[jaybird]

I'm watching A Football Life: Tom Landry and a recurring theme was Landry's belief that players were just cogs in the system. For Landry's 20 consecutive winning seasons, was it a result of the system or the players?

5 = Majority System
4 = More System
3 = Equal System & Players
Who cares? If i had to pick i say 3. But TL was football GOD in my book. Its embarassing to me when some on this forum dare to compare him to Jimmy Johnson. I appreciate JJ, but he was most difintely a 2 if not a 1. Thanks to Minnesota.
2 = More Players
1 = Majority Players

 

[KJJ]

I'm watching A Football Life: Tom Landry

Just watched it again the story Tex Schramm told about Landry was pretty funny. Tex came up with the idea for the cheerleaders and Landry thought they were unwholesome. Tex said he took Landry into a room and showed him the movie Debbie Does Dallas. He said Tom this is unwholesome and 2 minutes later Landry ran out of the room. lol