Tony Romo does make that much of a difference

Idgit

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This place used to be divided into those who loved the Cowboys but hated Jerry Jones VERSUS those who love all things Cowboys (including Jerry).

Lately it has become those who love the Cowboys but can't stand Garrett VERSUS those who will make nonstop excuses for Garrett.

Tony Romo is THE REASON why we win. If he has a horrible game or is injured we have little to no chance if winning. If he has an average to spectacular game, we can beat anyone. Garrett does little to impact that either way.

I wouldn't agree with any of those descriptions. The divisions I see on the board have a lot more to do with how people generally handle frustration and disappointment than they do how we happen to view the team. Though you point out an interesting tendency. No matter how you might try to frame a discussion about the reasons we lose rather than complaining about the fact that we've lost, people end up characterizing you as 'making excuses' and refuse to acknowledge that what you're really doing is 'looking for reasons.'

Shrug. That's the nature of a mob: to draw conclusions based on emotion and with the goal of arriving at consensus. Because there's safety in consensus.

It just happens to be the safety of cavemen and pack-animals. In my humble opinion. Who's with me?
 

KingintheNorth

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I wouldn't agree with any of those descriptions.

I wouldn't expect you to.

Shrug. That's the nature of a mob: to draw conclusions based on emotion and with the goal of arriving at consensus. Because there's safety in consensus.

Agreed. My only issue has always been one mob acting like they are better (fans) than the other mob.
 

Idgit

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I wouldn't expect you to.

Agreed. My only issue has always been one mob acting like they are better (fans) than the other mob.

Better? I wouldn't say better. One group is a lot more rational than the other. It's also a lot smaller, and not a mob at all. It's really just a group of people who are curious as to whether the torches and pitchforks are really necessary.

At the end of the day, we're all fans of the same thing and want the same thing. There's no 'better' way to be a fan of something. But, yeah, I think understanding is generally more important than venting most of the time, so I'm going to try to err on that side. It doesn't mean I'll always understand what's going on. But it does mean my first impulse is to think about the problem instead of complaining that somebody else hasn't solved it already.
 

Idgit

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Oh shut up, fake fan.

The only time I've ever referred to anybody as a 'fake fan' is when I've had good reason to believe they're actually a fan of another team, posing as a Cowboys fan. Chris is a smart dude, and definitely isn't in that category.

I don't even have you in that category. You're a legit Cowboy fan who's primarily here to cause dissent, based off of my observations. I question your motives, but not your allegiance.
 

Alexander

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The only time I've ever referred to anybody as a 'fake fan' is when I've had good reason to believe they're actually a fan of another team, posing as a Cowboys fan. Chris is a smart dude, and definitely isn't in that category.

I don't even have you in that category. You're a legit Cowboy fan who's primarily here to cause dissent, based off of my observations. I question your motives, but not your allegiance.

Since you addressed me specifically, I will answer.

I made the shot at Chris to prove a point in sarcasm. I can guarantee you he was not offended and he gets it.

I am here to cause "dissent"? What exactly is that?

Please spell it out so I and more importantly, anyone else reading it can understand.

Try to be very distinct. I feel everyone needs to know that.

I speak my mind. I have an opinion that 99.9% of the time disagrees with your opinion.

Look, I know you don't like me. I know you "question my motives".

But you know what?

The feeling is mutual. Your "motives" are pretty clear as well, even though you like to pretend you don't have an "agenda" of your own.
 

TheDude

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I'm not disputing that we needed to win those games or that the HC is ultimately responsible for it. But we didn't lose them because of coaching limitations. We can walk through each of the games, if you care to. It's going to come down to bad QB play and TO differential, though.

We didn't have a viable backup QB, that's for sure. It doesn't follow that we took ourselves out of the market. If you identify that as the problem, then it matters what alternatives were available and at what cost. Was backup QB worth giving up the Gregory pick for a team that got killed by a lack of defensive pressure in 2014 and a very good OL and a top-3 QB on the roster already? I don't think it was. Should we have done it instead of taking Martin to protect Romo a year earlier? We expressed interest in Shaun Hill in the offseason, I already mentioned, and he chose to go back to MIN instead. Were we seriously interested in anybody else? Wa the option of bringing in Cassel earlier in camp realistic when he was competing for a starting job elsewhere? Were they maybe a lot more serious about Vaughan's upside and caught by surprise when he crapped the bed in preseason?

Setting aside how much of that's on the GM and how much on the coaches, I'm not sure how fair it is to blame the HC for not having a better option at QB. They took a chance and got completely exposed by it, but it doesn't mean it was a foolish chance, necessarily. Sometimes you can't cover all your bets. We rolled snake-eyes this season, and, yes, part of that's because of how we place our bets. But some of it's the dice. It's tough to blame the player for not covering the bet when he craps out.

I dont blame the player at all. If they decided to trot me out there, I could be worse, but I didnt force the decision. I will argue that the coaches pretty much neutered Weeden with the 1 read and checkdown philosophy. This is a very simplistic offense that does not rely on a ton of timing, pick plays, etc. 99% of the passes were basically runs. Defenses definitely compensated. In steps Cassell, airs it out and throws 3 picks - 2 of the next 3 games nary a TD. To say there is no culpability of those performances on coaches (and org) just doesnt compute because you have TJYates jump off the couch and torch the 6 ranked pass def of the NYJ pass def. And the previous week throw the only TD to beat a undefeated Bengals team. TJ Yates can lead a TD drive(s) vs NYJ and Cincy, but nary a one can we get vs Tampa. So Im sure there are areas that you can point to deficiencies in other areas, but that is also saying that the game plan/philosophy, etc was sound. That is where I cant buy it for 7 weeks straight.

And its not an either/or QB or Randy Gregory option in the least. How about Landry Jones? Picked in the 4th Round 2013, Right After the Dallas Cowboys picked CB - BW Webb. Shaun Hill was also available right after 2013 from Detroit. Even with that, there were other options better than Weeden for 2 straight years. He was already over 30 and was basically a horrid rookie This isnt a backup QB vs Gregory discussion.

The odd part is they "groomed" Weeden for 2 years to check the ball down where 95% of the throws were within 5 yards of the LOS. If that is the plan, and I stated it since day 1, go with Flowers or someone who prides a hint of mobility as a backup. After 0-7 I just cant take any excuse that seriously. You have to be weapons grade unlucky to do that.

The team rolled the dice on a player that has played 3 complete seasons since 2007 and that all in on boxcars came up 3-6 and the sent career cooler in as relief. That strategy is never a good idea. Many didnt need 3 games to see it
 
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Idgit

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Since you addressed me specifically, I will answer.

I made the shot at Chris to prove a point in sarcasm. I can guarantee you he was not offended and he gets it.

I am here to cause "dissent"? What exactly is that?

Please spell it out so I and more importantly, anyone else reading it can understand.

Try to be very distinct. I feel everyone needs to know that.

I speak my mind. I have an opinion that 99.9% of the time disagrees with your opinion.

Look, I know you don't like me. I know you "question my motives".

But you know what?

The feeling is mutual. Your "motives" are pretty clear as well, even though you like to pretend you don't have an "agenda" of your own.

You quoted him quoting me, and so I responded to make it clear that I don't call people 'fake fans' because I happen to disagree with them. And that I'd much rather engage in the debate.

I don't need to spell out my opinion of your posting style here, Alexander. You're free to participate however you care to as long as you stay within the guidelines, just like the rest of us. We don't have to be besties. But I question your motives because you disappear during winning streaks and your post counts increase during losing streaks. I think you're disingenuous and I believe you frequently post things because of the reaction you know it will get and not because you want the conversation or discussion. A good example of htis is the 'fake fan' dig re: my exchange with Chris.

There are a ton of posters I disagree with a lot more often than I agree with them, and I think they're great forum members. And I like them *because* they speak their mind. Your ability to speak your mind when you're actually talking football is one of the very few things I actually like about your posts.

And I don't say that I don't have an agenda. I want a board where football issues are discussed and where Cowboys fans can either commiserate or engage in quality debate. Stuff-stirring posts that just aimed at getting a negative reaction from other fans or that take shots at the board or how it's run make this place less like the place I'd like to see it be. And so you'll see me possibly question the motives of posters to do that on purpose. But, as I said, not their fanhood.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Got it. Your opinion is always right, those who disagree are always wrong. Can you direct me to the purple blankets, shiny hats, and kool-aid?

In Romo We Trust.

I never said that. I don't play the 'I am never wrong game.' Keep flailing.

I will say that coming up with that after I just named a coach I would like to replace Garrett with is funny. I bet you haven't evolved far enough in your anger to actually try to think of solutions. Anger doesn't have to be mindless.

If you want to make an inference as to my intent I live by the notion that an idea supported by specific facts and reason is most compelling. I then go about laying out specific facts and opinions and allow them to speak for themselves. Of course I think my grasp on reality is better than yours. It's the reason why we argue in the first place. So in the end I say: so what?
 

Idgit

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Just a reminder guys, please don't publicly question the actions of the staff or how the site is managed. I know some posters are frustrated with the policy of moving redundant threads or labeling them 'rants,' but please accept the spirit behind the explanations for that and try to comply.

Alexander, you won't believe it, but that's the sole reason I had to remove your opus. If you can repost it without taking shots at the board, you're free to do so. I probably will just leave you the last word on the exchange here, because we're getting way off the topic of the difference Tony Romo makes.

PM me if you need access to your post that was deleted.
 

Alexander

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Just a reminder guys, please don't publicly question the actions of the staff or how the site is managed. I know some posters are frustrated with the policy of moving redundant threads or labeling them 'rants,' but please accept the spirit behind the explanations for that and try to comply.

Alexander, you won't believe it, but that's the sole reason I had to remove your opus. If you can repost it without taking shots at the board, you're free to do so. I probably will just leave you the last word on the exchange here, because we're getting way off the topic of the difference Tony Romo makes.

Especially since you took it off topic when I took a joke shot at Chris which I know he gets.

PM me if you need access to your post that was deleted.

No reason to do so. I prefer our conversations be public and then you delete what you don't like.

Like I said before, do what you do. It is all there for anyone to see if they are quick enough.
 

Idgit

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Especially since you took it off topic when I took a joke shot at Chris which I know he gets.

No reason to do so. I prefer our conversations be public and then you delete what you don't like.

Like I said before, do what you do. It is all there for anyone to see if they are quick enough.

Fair enough. I'm more than happy to let it rest on our respective histories.

To be clear, I didn't delete your post because I didn't like it. I removed it because it skirted a board guideline.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Especially since you took it off topic when I took a joke shot at Chris which I know he gets.



No reason to do so. I prefer our conversations be public and then you delete what you don't like.

Like I said before, do what you do. It is all there for anyone to see if they are quick enough.

The passive aggressive joke was not directed at Chris and you know it. You just cannot say what you want to say so you have to do it that way.

The whole coy circumspect routine is cute though.
 

kramskoi

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I wouldn't agree with any of those descriptions. The divisions I see on the board have a lot more to do with how people generally handle frustration and disappointment than they do how we happen to view the team. Though you point out an interesting tendency. No matter how you might try to frame a discussion about the reasons we lose rather than complaining about the fact that we've lost, people end up characterizing you as 'making excuses' and refuse to acknowledge that what you're really doing is 'looking for reasons.'

Shrug. That's the nature of a mob: to draw conclusions based on emotion and with the goal of arriving at consensus. Because there's safety in consensus.

It just happens to be the safety of cavemen and pack-animals. In my humble opinion. Who's with me?

I disagree Idgit. In moments of quiet, unemotional contemplation, it is difficult to see how Garrett keeps his job without Romo. I think he would have been fired after 2013, maybe even 2012. He simply would not have won enough games (without Romo) during the 8-8 years to keep him viable as a head coach. It would have been Dave Campo type seasons in my opinion. He is conservative by nature and there is good evidence for this (mostly by Sturm). I think he is an excellent coach for a talented team, but I don't see him in the same vein as a coach like Tom Coughlin, who always seems to do more with less, as a stern disciplinarian.

Going 0-7 in Romo's absence is an indictment not just of some players, but of the coaching staff and front office as well. Either that, or this team has a cute facade but a less than cute internal make-up. Moreover, I don't see too many wins this year if Romo had been lost for the season.

That said, the players believe in him, and that is all that really matters in keeping the team functioning at the highest levels possible. With that type of atmosphere I can live with Garrett as head coach, but I am under no illusions that he is the best to ever walk the Cowboys' sideline on Sunday afternoons.

The best thing EVER to happen to the Cowboys since the retirement of Jimmy Johnson is Tony Romo. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
 

ScipioCowboy

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There really are very few coaches that manage to lose 7 straight - outside of being yr 1 (terrible team) or a firing year - and be called top tier. In fact I dont know of any off the top of my head

Exactly. I mean, it's okay to admit Garrett failed in this instance. It doesn't mean he needs to be fired. It doesn't even mean he's a bad coach in the aggregate. And it's not a reflection of anyone's self worth.
 

Idgit

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I disagree Idgit. In moments of quiet, unemotional contemplation, it is difficult to see how Garrett keeps his job without Romo. I think he would have been fired after 2013, maybe even 2012. He simply would not have won enough games (without Romo) during the 8-8 years to keep him viable as a head coach. It would have been Dave Campo type seasons in my opinion. He is conservative by nature and there is good evidence for this (mostly by Sturm). I think he is an excellent coach for a talented team, but I don't see him in the same vein as a coach like Tom Coughlin, who always seems to do more with less, as a stern disciplinarian.

Going 0-7 in Romo's absence is an indictment not just of some players, but of the coaching staff and front office as well. Either that, or this team has a cute facade but a less than cute internal make-up. Moreover, I don't see too many wins this year if Romo had been lost for the season.

That said, the players believe in him, and that is all that really matters in keeping the team functioning at the highest levels possible. With that type of atmosphere I can live with Garrett as head coach, but I am under no illusions that he is the best to ever walk the Cowboys' sideline on Sunday afternoons.

The best thing EVER to happen to the Cowboys since the retirement of Jimmy Johnson is Tony Romo. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Maybe. Probably. Without Romo, those teams would have been awful. If he had a long enough leash, Garrett's got the ability to find and develop players. He probably wouldn't have had the leash, though.
 

Idgit

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I dont blame the player at all. If they decided to trot me out there, I could be worse, but I didnt force the decision. I will argue that the coaches pretty much neutered Weeden with the 1 read and checkdown philosophy. This is a very simplistic offense that does not rely on a ton of timing, pick plays, etc. 99% of the passes were basically runs. Defenses definitely compensated. In steps Cassell, airs it out and throws 3 picks - 2 of the next 3 games nary a TD. To say there is no culpability of those performances on coaches (and org) just doesnt compute because you have TJYates jump off the couch and torch the 6 ranked pass def of the NYJ pass def. And the previous week throw the only TD to beat a undefeated Bengals team. TJ Yates can lead a TD drive(s) vs NYJ and Cincy, but nary a one can we get vs Tampa. So Im sure there are areas that you can point to deficiencies in other areas, but that is also saying that the game plan/philosophy, etc was sound. That is where I cant buy it for 7 weeks straight.

And its not an either/or QB or Randy Gregory option in the least. How about Landry Jones? Picked in the 4th Round 2013, Right After the Dallas Cowboys picked CB - BW Webb. Shaun Hill was also available right after 2013 from Detroit. Even with that, there were other options better than Weeden for 2 straight years. He was already over 30 and was basically a horrid rookie This isnt a backup QB vs Gregory discussion.

The odd part is they "groomed" Weeden for 2 years to check the ball down where 95% of the throws were within 5 yards of the LOS. If that is the plan, and I stated it since day 1, go with Flowers or someone who prides a hint of mobility as a backup. After 0-7 I just cant take any excuse that seriously. You have to be weapons grade unlucky to do that.

The team rolled the dice on a player that has played 3 complete seasons since 2007 and that all in on boxcars came up 3-6 and the sent career cooler in as relief. That strategy is never a good idea. Many didnt need 3 games to see it

Good post, btw. You're right that the staff bears some responsibility somewhere for not successfully backing up Romo, whatever their reasons. Whatever the mix, some of that has to be on Garrett. I think we liked Shaun Hill because of Linehan, but I don't know if his availability in 2013 overlapped Linehan's presence on the staff or not. It's really hard to second guess how we might have had QBs in the draft rated relative to Weeden/Vaughan or relative to the players we ultimately took, but I'll concede that we didn't cover ourselves adequately at QB. Then again, I was saying the same thing this offseason, because I didn't like our backup QB at that point, either.

As far as Weeden goes, we lost more games without him than we did with him, and with a better roster. And to be fair to the guy, he did play great in the PHI game in relief.

As to the losing streak, how much does the fact that they're really consecutive matter? A season loss is a season loss as far as evaluating a coach is concerned, isn't it? Does 8-8 with a seven consecutive losses look any worse than 8-8 with the losses spread over 17 weeks? Or does it maybe look better because the reason for the losses can more reasonably be attributed to personnel being out of games than it can be to something else? I'd say the latter. Of course, that means we have to get to 8-8 from 3-7. That's not necessarily likely. But we might end up pretty close. At any rate, I'm sure you get my point.

And then, finally, regarding the losses themselves. In a sport where roughly half of all games are decided by 7 points or less, more or less. Or where almost a quarter of al games are decided by 3 points or less, you're in a better position to tell me than I am to tell you just how unlikely a 7 game losing streak is. How many of those games might have been coached well enough to win (theoretically, if we could measure such things) and instead they were lost on one execution error or one referee's decision or one truly fantastic play by a member of an opposing team. One game? Two, maybe? If they were execution errors, there's really know way for us as fans to know if or how hard the coaches might have been working with the players in question to eliminate such a problem. If it's a referee's decision, there's obviously very little no coaching control over how those calls get made. Statistically speaking, does it follow that 7 losses in a row has to be on the coaching where a couple strings of two or three losses in a row could be explainable by other circumstances? I'm not sure it does.
 

Zman5

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Better? I wouldn't say better. One group is a lot more rational than the other. It's also a lot smaller, and not a mob at all. It's really just a group of people who are curious as to whether the torches and pitchforks are really necessary.

At the end of the day, we're all fans of the same thing and want the same thing. There's no 'better' way to be a fan of something. But, yeah, I think understanding is generally more important than venting most of the time, so I'm going to try to err on that side. It doesn't mean I'll always understand what's going on. But it does mean my first impulse is to think about the problem instead of complaining that somebody else hasn't solved it already.


So if you criticize JG, you are less rational than the people who think he can do no wrong? Hmmm. OK.:facepalm:
 

Wizarus

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I just keep thinking about 3 years later, and who knows if Tony's going to stay healthy until then. This team without Tony has been weighted and found wanting, so we're pretty much set up to go through a repeat of being mediocre when Troy left.
 
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