Toomer: Romo better than Eli

[superpunk]

You're right, he has to keep it up. But to say: I'll take Brees or Rodgers over him, is an overstatement, because what do you want, complete consistency, or a QB who goes on a run and actually wins. My God, the Giants were the first team in the NFL to turn a 15-1 team and done. Rodgers has one ring, Brees has one ring, they are both top QB's, but give the kid credit for having 2. I'll take a mediocre year here and there and then a SB every 4 yrs.

Screw the stats and QB ratings, what is on the trophy case is what counts, and giving your fans edge of the seat playing.

Those were two fabulous runs they had. Stats are meaningless in the road of life my friends.

I'll tell you this, call me an idiot, but I think (right now anyway) Eli is better than his brother. AND when Eli was drafted, Peyton said he was the better athlete.

You can't just screw the stats and the ratings when talking about what sort of passer a player is.

If you're starting a team, you're going to go with the best passer, the guy who you believe can carry your team no matter what's going on around him. Eli did that last season, he has not been asked to do that for his career.

Over his career, the Giants' league rank in rush offense has been [11, 6, 7, 4, 1, 17, 6, 32]. When you have a rushing offense like that much less is asked of you as a passer, especially when you're combining it with some of the defenses New York has trotted out over that period. I mean good grief Eli has had to play three seasons without a top 10 rushing offense, and only two without a rushing offense in the league's top half. There's a reason why you see those graphics about how great Eli's numbers off of play action are compared to non-PA. It's because he has been blessed with an effective running game scaring the defense.

Compare that to Romo, whose rushing offenses over his career have been [13, 17, 21, 7, 16, 18]. He has only had a top 10 rushing game ONCE in his career and only had a rushing game in the top half of the league twice in six years. He has to carry the team on his arm, and he does it at a much higher level than Eli - consistently. If you are choosing a player to start a team with and you are smart, you would be more inclined to choose a QB like Romo or Brees or Peyton who has proved year after year that he can do it himself, unlike Eli who has not had to do that.

He's a good player and congrats on the rings but he's not on that level as a passer. Not unless he can string about 4 more years together at the level he just played at.

 

[op124]

You can't just screw the stats and the ratings when talking about what sort of passer a player is.

If you're starting a team, you're going to go with the best passer, the guy who you believe can carry your team no matter what's going on around him. Eli did that last season, he has not been asked to do that for his career.

Over his career, the Giants' league rank in rush offense has been [11, 6, 7, 4, 1, 17, 6, 32]. When you have a rushing offense like that much less is asked of you as a passer, especially when you're combining it with some of the defenses New York has trotted out over that period. I mean good grief Eli has had to play three seasons without a top 10 rushing offense, and only two without a rushing offense in the league's top half. There's a reason why you see those graphics about how great Eli's numbers off of play action are compared to non-PA. It's because he has been blessed with an effective running game scaring the defense.

Compare that to Romo, whose rushing offenses over his career have been [13, 17, 21, 7, 16, 18]. He has only had a top 10 rushing game ONCE in his career and only had a rushing game in the top half of the league twice in six years. He has to carry the team on his arm, and he does it at a much higher level than Eli - consistently. If you are choosing a player to start a team with and you are smart, you would be more inclined to choose a QB like Romo or Brees or Peyton who has proved year after year that he can do it himself, unlike Eli who has not had to do that.

He's a good player and congrats on the rings but he's not on that level as a passer. Not unless he can string about 4 more years together at the level he just played at.

Yeah, but not in the Giants Offense. Eli attempted passes

2005: 3
2006: 6
2007: 7
2008: 11
2009: 12
2010: 8
2011: 4

Eli and Romo have two different stories, stats cannot tell it all. What is asked of Eli in his O and may be completely different from Romo. Cannot compare their situations.

 

[op124]

That whole play was just a lucky break, IMO. And, that's cool, because football sometimes needs those breaks. It was a fluke play that won a SB...however, let Eli do that 10 more times, and that ball is not perfect, or it gets picked, or it's just an incomplete pass.

Eli got lucky...

It was on 1 and 10, how did it win the SB he had to drive down the field.


How can it be a fluke? You think you can run a slant 10 more times and the DB won't recognize it break it up?

 

[superpunk]

Yeah, but not in the Giants Offense. Eli attempted passes

2005: 3
2006: 6
2007: 7
2008: 11
2009: 12
2010: 8
2011: 4

Eli and Romo have two different stories, stats cannot tell it all. What is asked of Eli in his O and may be completely different from Romo. Cannot compare their situations.

The entire thread is about comparing their situations. And not just theirs but Eli vs. other effective passers in the league. And the facts are that Eli has a luxury that most of the league's top passers don't - an extremely effective running game year in and year out. And even with that luxury, for his career he has not been able to perform at their elite level until last season. He has to keep it up to realistically be in the conversation for best QB/passers.

 

[AbeBeta]

Over his career, the Giants' league rank in rush offense has been [11, 6, 7, 4, 1, 17, 6, 32]. When you have a rushing offense like that much less is asked of you as a passer

The part I highlighted is hilarious.

You know 32 means worst, right?

 

[Kingsmith88]

The part I highlighted is hilarious.

You know 32 means worst, right?

 

[superpunk]

The part I highlighted is hilarious.

You know 32 means worst, right?

That's the part I highlighted.

Also, yes. Did you know 1 means best? What a world!

 

[op124]

The entire thread is about comparing their situations. And not just theirs but Eli vs. other effective passers in the league. And the facts are that Eli has a luxury that most of the league's top passers don't - an extremely effective running game year in and year out. And even with that luxury, for his career he has not been able to perform at their elite level until last season. He has to keep it up to realistically be in the conversation for best QB/passers.

What is wrong with his numbers from 2009-present? (I have no idea why people are thinking about Eli's regular season stats from 2005-2007. It's very clear he is a different person. )

4000 yard seasons 89 TDs 55 INTs 90 QB rating 27 - 21 Win- Loss
9 Comeback Wins
Defense averaged giving up 24 pts.
RBs averaged 15 TDS

 

[AbeBeta]

That's the part I highlighted.

Also, yes. Did you know 1 means best? What a world!

So last year Romo was asked to do more than Eli because his run game was worse?

You aren't making any sense SuperPunkyBrewster

 

[superpunk]

What is wrong with his numbers from 2009-present? (I have no idea why people are thinking about Eli Regular season stats from 2005-2007. It's very clear he is a different person. )

4000 yard seasons 89 TDs 55 INTs 90 QB rating 27 - 21 Win- Loss
9 Comeback Wins
Defense averaged giving up 24 pts.
RBs averaged 15 TDS

Nothing's really wrong with them outside of that 30 turnover year in 2010. They're just not eye-popping, elite level numbers that other elite passers are putting up. I mean we had 3 QBs go over 5,000 yards last season. Eli has finally got his completion pct. over 60 consistently. Peyton Manning has 10 years of QB ratings over 90, and 3 over 100. Eli has two seasons over 90 and then a sea of mediocrity. Sorry he's just not on that level yet, of those guys who are carrying their teams and putting up eye-popping numbers year in and year out.

 

[nablives]

What is wrong with his numbers from 2009-present? (I have no idea why people are thinking about Eli's regular season stats from 2005-2007. It's very clear he is a different person. )

4000 yard seasons 89 TDs 55 INTs 90 QB rating 27 - 21 Win- Loss
9 Comeback Wins
Defense averaged giving up 24 pts.
RBs averaged 15 TDS

Not that I disrespect Eli as much as some people, but do you really want to include the 2010 season and his 30 turnovers? That's horrendous no matter who the QB is.

 

[superpunk]

So last year Romo was asked to do more than Eli because his run game was worse?

You aren't making any sense SuperPunkyBrewster

You appear to have no grasp on the point I made. Maybe it's because you didn't follow it from the beginning. Go back to this statement, before I did the statistical follow-through, and start over.

I think the Giants rushing offense nearly every season has been top 10 outside of 2009 and last season. He hasn't had to carry a team and hasn't been successful doing so until last season when he did so fantastically.

 

[Idgit]

So last year Romo was asked to do more than Eli because his run game was worse?

You aren't making any sense SuperPunkyBrewster

You appear to have no grasp on the point I made. Maybe it's because you didn't follow it from the beginning. Go back to this statement, before I did the statistical follow-through, and start over.

Dude. He called you "SuperPunkyBrewster." You're not seriously going to just take that?

 

[superpunk]

Dude. He called you "SuperPunkyBrewster." You're not seriously going to just take that?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ujO0MA7YpLs/Td2me4lR4qI/AAAAAAAAbbk/AqC-MrrpKoU/s320/punky-brewster.jpg

I take it in.

All holes in the opposition's argument are ridiculously easy to see.

 

[op124]

Nothing's really wrong with them outside of that 30 turnover year in 2010. They're just not eye-popping, elite level numbers that other elite passers are putting up. I mean we had 3 QBs go over 5,000 yards last season. Eli has finally got his completion pct. over 60 consistently. Peyton Manning has 10 years of QB ratings over 90, and 3 over 100. Eli has two seasons over 90 and then a sea of mediocrity. Sorry he's just not on that level yet, of those guys who are carrying their teams and putting up eye-popping numbers year in and year out.

Why does he need to carry the team when no other elite QB has to?

Did Aaron Rodgers do it 2010 when he won the championship? No, His D gave up 15 pts a game.

This year I can say Eli put the team on his back to lead them to the playoffs. The D woke up and it was solid FB in every phase except running game.

 

[superpunk]

Why does he need to carry the team when no other elite QB has to?

I don't really know how else to put it to you. I'm not holding him to a different criteria than other passers I'm holding him to the same criteria, he just doesn't measure up as well, even though he has had benefits other passers haven't year in and year out.

 

[AbeBeta]

You appear to have no grasp on the point I made. Maybe it's because you didn't follow it from the beginning. Go back to this statement, before I did the statistical follow-through, and start over.

and maybe this piece eluded you.

2007 Playoffs. 118 carries for 415 yards. That's a crushing 3.5 YPC and 103 YPG

By comparison, the Patriots, who no one would ever confuse with a good running team averaged 4.5 YPC and 113 YPG

Claiming that the running game carried the team still?

 

[superpunk]

and maybe this piece eluded you.

2007 Playoffs. 118 carries for 415 yards. That's a crushing 3.5 YPC and 103 YPG

By comparison, the Patriots, who no one would ever confuse with a good running team averaged 4.5 YPC and 113 YPG

Claiming that the running game carried the team still?

You've simply missed every bit of the point.

 

[AbeBeta]

You've simply missed every bit of the point.

That sort of argument might help you get one over on Henry and Brandon, but it won't work with me

 

[superpunk]

That sort of argument might help you get one over on Henry and Brandon, but it won't work with me

Well it's true you're not even talking about the same thing I am. You missed the relevance of the 32 and haven't shown a shred of ability to keep pace with anything so far. I explained it very well and thoroughly, you just failed to grasp.