Toomer: Romo better than Eli

[AsthmaField]

As long as there are guys who can both play great during the season and during the postseason, there's no reason to consider a player who can't do both elite just because he happens to have been on the team that collected the hardware.

Bravo.

 

[tyke1doe]

6 time Pro bowler, very accurate QB in fact one of the most accurate during his playing time. And yes team accomplishments matter but not soley. The differance in views comes down to some put only the team accomplishment and forget about the overall individual play of the QB position

Just to play defense attorney, couldn't it be said that Aikman was accurate because he had a great back in Emmitt, which made the defense respect the run, and because he got great blocking from his offensive line?

It seems the same way posters are poo-pahing Eli because his "team" carried him can be applied to Aikman.

Aikman had the best of everything, similarly to Terry Bradshaw - great defense, great receivers, great running game.

Is his accuracy a product of his great team or was it him?

 

[Idgit]

Just to play defense attorney, couldn't it be said that Aikman was accurate because he had a great back in Emmitt, which made the defense respect the run, and because he got great blocking from his offensive line?

It seems the same way posters are poo-pahing Eli because his "team" carried him can be applied to Aikman.

Aikman had the best of everything, similarly to Terry Bradshaw - great defense, great receivers, great running game.

Is his accuracy a product of his great team or was it him?

Aikman had a rocket arm and outstanding accuracy. But those were two of his greatest attributes. I don't buy the arguments about how good he could have been if called upon to do more. It doesn't matter. He was as good as he was, no better.

Troy was a very good QB, but there were better players at his position in the league (Montana, Elway). Some of them had less hardware, too. It doesn't matter, though. He was a great player, and good enough to win the big ones.

I don't understand why people think ******** Manning is getting slighted when they say he's not an elite QB. He's played damn good football when it matters, his team was elite (Superbowl victories are the only measure of 'elite' when it comes to teams). He's going to be in the Hall of Fame someday in all likelihood--and will deserve it. All of this can be true, and he can still not be as good a player as Romo. And Romo might not be as good a player as Brees, or Rodgers, or Brady, or P Manning, or Rivers or whoever.

Evaluating QB play properly has nothing to do with being a homer or not being a homer. Some players are just better than other players. And some players aren't necessarily better, but they're just in better situations. There are a dozen guys in the league who'd look a hell of a lot better than they do now if they were playing in San Francisco. Put Jay Cutler or Phillip Rivers in that offense, and we'd be calling those guys elite right now. Stafford, Bradford on the 49ers? They'd be elite. Because they'd have the teams to win the big games on the biggest stage. The reality is, they'd be the same players in a better situation on a better team.

This is the reason why you don't measure players by team accomplishments. There are other important factors significant enough to impact the outcomes of games.

 

[ufcrules1]

Unlike you, I look at the whole picture and not just those two shiny Super Bowl rings that seem to have you under a spell.

Like the same one your Avatar has you under? Those rings are nice aren't they?
Eli is polishing his right now while me and Romo are dreaming about them.

 

[Idgit]

Like the same one your Avatar has you under? Those rings are nice aren't they?
Eli is polishing his right now while me and Romo are dreaming about them.

That's cool that the team decided to give the Superbowl rings to Eli. It used to be that everybody on the team got one.

 

[gimmesix]

Like the same one your Avatar has you under? Those rings are nice aren't they?
Eli is polishing his right now while me and Romo are dreaming about them.

Brandon Jacobs is also polishing his. I suppose that makes him an elite running back.

Again, if your description of elite simply means winning Super Bowls, then by all means call Eli elite.

I tend to think elite means that you have the whole package, great (consistent) numbers and success. Eli has only two years out of eight with a QB rating over 86.4 in this passing age. His numbers don't support him being called elite.

Romo has shown elite skills as far as statistics go, and that's one of the reasons I like him more and consider him better, but he needs the success to really be considered elite. Of course, that success won't come if the defense, etc., isn't ready to do its part. (BTW, I don't think Super Bowl victories are necessary, but success in the playoffs is.)

Right now, the only elite QBs playing in the NFL IMO are Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees and Peyton Manning (although he might no longer be elite). They are the only ones with the numbers and success to deserve the tag. In fact, Ben Roethlisberger probably deserves more consideration as elite than Eli, with only two seasons out of eight below a 90.1 rating and three Super Bowl appearances (two victories).

Eli and Romo are both on the cusp, for different reasons. If Eli continues to put up numbers like he did last year, he'll be in that group. If Romo starts having the playoff success to back his numbers, he'll be in that group.

 

[ufcrules1]

Brandon Jacobs is also polishing his. I suppose that makes him an elite running back.

Again, if your description of elite simply means winning Super Bowls, then by all means call Eli elite.

I tend to think elite means that you have the whole package, great (consistent) numbers and success. Eli has only two years out of eight with a QB rating over 86.4 in this passing age. His numbers don't support him being called elite.

Romo has shown elite skills as far as statistics go, and that's one of the reasons I like him more and consider him better, but he needs the success to really be considered elite. Of course, that success won't come if the defense, etc., isn't ready to do its part. (BTW, I don't think Super Bowl victories are necessary, but success in the playoffs is.)

Right now, the only elite QBs playing in the NFL IMO are Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees and Peyton Manning (although he might no longer be elite). They are the only ones with the numbers and success to deserve the tag. In fact, Ben Roethlisberger probably deserves more consideration as elite than Eli, with only two seasons out of eight below a 90.1 rating and three Super Bowl appearances (two victories).

Eli and Romo are both on the cusp, for different reasons. If Eli continues to put up numbers like he did last year, he'll be in that group. If Romo starts having the playoff success to back his numbers, he'll be in that group.

I guess there is no true definition for elite. Eli has excelled where it matters most and that is the playoffs and the superbowl(s). He has out played "Elite" QB's. No, his QB rating during the regular season isn't stellar, but he is a beast come playoffs and championships. That is what it's all about.

Romo would gladly give up his QB rating for a solid playoff record and 2 superbowl rings right now as the leader of his team. Romo has also said himself the post season is what matters, not the regular season.

As it stands right now..IMO Romo will be remembered as a qb that showed great talent but choked when the going got rough. Eli will be remembered as an above average QB during the regular season and a beast come playoff/superbowl time.

That could change if Romo leads his team to some post season success.

 

[Doomsday101]

I guess there is no true definition for elite. Eli has excelled where it matters most and that is the playoffs and the superbowl(s). He has out played "Elite" QB's. No, his QB rating during the regular season isn't stellar, but he is a beast come playoffs and championships. That is what it's all about.

Romo would gladly give up his QB rating for a solid playoff record and 2 superbowl rings right now as the leader of his team. Romo has also said himself the post season is what matters, not the regular season.

As it stands right now..IMO Romo will be remembered as a qb that showed great talent but choked when the going got rough. Eli will be remembered as an above average QB during the regular season and a beast come playoff/superbowl time.

That could change if Romo leads his team to some post season success.

Eli has had success and is a good QB but why is it other so called elite do it year in and year out, not some years are good and others are not?

What makes any person elite is they are consistent in playing at a high level. Jordan was elite he brought it year in year out in post season, reg season did not matter. Marino never won a ring but year in and year out he played at a very high level and with Peyton Manning he only has 1 ring but is considered elite by most because of the simple fact he produces at a high level every year. No one is saying Eli is not a top QB elite is a level I don't see in him as of yet.

 

[burmafrd]

I guess there is no true definition for elite. Eli has excelled where it matters most and that is the playoffs and the superbowl(s). He has out played "Elite" QB's. No, his QB rating during the regular season isn't stellar, but he is a beast come playoffs and championships. That is what it's all about.

Romo would gladly give up his QB rating for a solid playoff record and 2 superbowl rings right now as the leader of his team. Romo has also said himself the post season is what matters, not the regular season.

As it stands right now..IMO Romo will be remembered as a qb that showed great talent but choked when the going got rough. Eli will be remembered as an above average QB during the regular season and a beast come playoff/superbowl time.

That could change if Romo leads his team to some post season success.

so when Eli was throwing multiple picks during games and therefore his team did not make the playoffs that still makes him elite to you?

 

[burmafrd]

Eli has had success and is a good QB but why is it other so called elite do it year in and year out, not some years are good and others are not?

What makes any person elite is they are consistent in playing at a high level. Jordan was elite he brought it year in year out in post season, reg season did not matter. Marino never won a ring but year in and year out he played at a very high level and with Peyton Manning he only has 1 ring but is considered elite by most because of the simple fact he produces at a high level every year. No one is saying Eli is not a top QB elite is a level I don't see in him as of yet.

Has Eli strung 2 seasons together with high season ratings and post season success?

NO.

So that is one definite checkmark against him.

He has not I believe even had two consecutive regular seasons with high ratings has he?

 

[Doomsday101]

Has Eli strung 2 seasons together with high season ratings and post season success?

NO.

So that is one definite checkmark against him.

He has not I believe even had two consecutive regular seasons with high ratings has he?

You are correct and that is the issue I have in calling him "elite" I have seen elite they are not only elite in some years they bring it every year.

That is not to say I think Eli is a bad QB or even just as avg QB he should get his dues for his play and the success his team has achived but I think it is a bit of a reach to put him in the elite catagory.

He may string together some outstanding season over the remainder of his career even in season where the Giants fail to make it to post season and if he does then yes I would call that elite because it has everything to do with being consistent at a high level

 

[op124]

Has Eli strung 2 seasons together with high season ratings and post season success?

NO.

So that is one definite checkmark against him.

He has not I believe even had two consecutive regular seasons with high ratings has he?

Why does QB rating mean so much?

It doesn't tell the whole story. Weather/drops/Oline/D didn't play well. QB stat padding. QB missing throw with game on the line. Tip balls. WR taking a 3yd catch into 70 yarder.

Tom Brady had a terrible game against the Jets in the 2010 post season but he added 60 yards and TD in garbage time to pad his stats to make his QB rating 89.

Tom Brady hasn't had a good post season and regular season since 2004. If you considered his stat padding in Den and don't recall he didn't lead his O to score since the beginning of the 3rd quarter. The dumb decision in the 4th to throw to Rob G. He had a good postseason this year. Tom Brady is considered elite.

Stats don't tell it all, you have to watch the games imo.

 

[MC KAos]

i just wanted to say something, i know im late and im way too lazy to read the entire thread, so forgive me if its been discussed, but....

i absolutely HATE it when the talking idiots on ESPN start saying things like "ELI BEAT ROMO!" or "ELI BEAT RODGERS" or "ELI BEAT BRADY!" am i missing something? did they close eli 52 times and have the clones play all the other positions? do you think eli would have won the super bowl last year if he has our atrocious defense to help him out? you dont think romo could have won the super bowl if he replaced eli on the giants?

end of rant

 

[Doomsday101]

Why does QB rating mean so much?

It doesn't tell the whole story. Weather/drops/Oline/D didn't play well. QB stat padding. QB missing throw with game on the line. Tip balls. WR taking a 3yd catch into 70 yarder.

Tom Brady had a terrible game against the Jets in the 2010 post season but he added 60 yards and TD in garbage time to pad his stats to make his QB rating 89.

Tom Brady hasn't had a good post season and regular season since 2004. If you considered his stat padding in Den and don't recall he didn't lead his O to score since the beginning of the 3rd quarter. The dumb decision in the 4th to throw to Rob G. He had a good postseason this year. Tom Brady is considered elite.

Stats don't tell it all, you have to watch the games imo.

I agree but it is not by accident that the top QB in the league also have the highest QB rating every year.

 

[gbrittain]

Why does QB rating mean so much?

It doesn't tell the whole story. Weather/drops/Oline/D didn't play well. QB stat padding. QB missing throw with game on the line. Tip balls. WR taking a 3yd catch into 70 yarder.

Tom Brady had a terrible game against the Jets in the 2010 post season but he added 60 yards and TD in garbage time to pad his stats to make his QB rating 89.

Tom Brady hasn't had a good post season and regular season since 2004. If you considered his stat padding in Den and don't recall he didn't lead his O to score since the beginning of the 3rd quarter. The dumb decision in the 4th to throw to Rob G. He had a good postseason this year. Tom Brady is considered elite.

Stats don't tell it all, you have to watch the games imo.

Here is a list of the QBs with the 5 worst QB ratings last year:

Gabbert
Painter
Skelton
Ponder
Bradford

Here is a list of the QBs with the 5 best QB ratings last year:

Rodgers
Brees
Brady
Romo
Stafford

 

[ufcrules1]

Here is a list of the QBs with the 5 best QB ratings last year:

Rodgers
Brees
Brady
Romo
Stafford

Well, 3 on that list are elite and the other 2 are not and then the one who lead his team to a superbowl victory isn't on the top 5 at all with regards to QB rating. I'm not buying the elite tag only applying to QB's that have high QB rating year in and year out. If that were the case Romo would be elite and we all know he isn't.

This is my elite/top tier list as of right now and in that order. I think Rodgers has the tools to shoot up to the top of this list too.

Peyton
Brady
Rodgers
Brees
Eli

 

[5Stars]

Well, 3 on that list are elite and the other 2 are not and then the one who lead his team to a superbowl victory isn't on the top 5 at all with regards to QB rating. I'm not buying the elite tag only applying to QB's that have high QB rating year in and year out. If that were the case Romo would be elite and we all know he isn't.

This is my elite/top tier list as of right now and in that order. I think Rodgers has the tools to shoot up to the top of this list too.

Peyton
Brady
Rodgers
Brees
Eli

Who's "we"? You got a mouse in your pocket?

 

[AbeBeta]

I agree but it is not by accident that the top QB in the league also have the highest QB rating every year.

Really? I see some top guys. But I also see Chad Pennington and Brian Griese

2011 Aaron Rodgers (28) 122.5 GNB
2010 Tom Brady (33) 111.0 NWE
2009 Drew Brees (30) 109.6 NOR
2008 Philip Rivers (27) 105.5 SDG
2007 Tom Brady (30) 117.2 NWE
2006 Peyton Manning (30) 101.0 IND
2005 Peyton Manning (29) 104.1 IND
2004 Peyton Manning (28) 121.1 IND
2003 Steve McNair (30) 100.4 TEN
2002 Chad Pennington (26) 104.2 NYJ
2001 Kurt Warner (30) 101.4 STL
2000 Brian Griese (25) 102.9 DEN

 

[gbrittain]

Well, 3 on that list are elite and the other 2 are not and then the one who lead his team to a superbowl victory isn't on the top 5 at all with regards to QB rating. I'm not buying the elite tag only applying to QB's that have high QB rating year in and year out. If that were the case Romo would be elite and we all know he isn't.

This is my elite/top tier list as of right now and in that order. I think Rodgers has the tools to shoot up to the top of this list too.

Peyton
Brady
Rodgers
Brees
Eli

Part of the problem is I could ask 100 people to define elite and I would probably get 100 different answers.

Main point is not to argue elite but determine what good QB play looks like. In that sense stats matter.

If I look at the 10 worst QB ratings according to NFL.com last year, I do not see a single players performance that was better than one of the players in the top 10.

Of course you could argue that guys in the bottom 10 like say Bradford will one day be a really good QB, but his performance last year was not.

I refuse to buy into the "stats mean" nothing tripe. If stats really meant nothing there would QBs in the bottom 10 that are better than guys in the top 10. That simply is not the case. I am not arguing the QB rating is perfect but it is a pretty good indicator of good performance.

 

[ufcrules1]

I refuse to buy into the "stats mean" nothing tripe. If stats really meant nothing there would QBs in the bottom 10 that are better than guys in the top 10. That simply is not the case. I am not arguing the QB rating is perfect but it is a pretty good indicator of good performance.

I would never say stats mean nothing as that is simply not true, however, I'm not in the 'Stats determine who the best qb's are" camp either. That is what some of my fellow Cowboys fans do because then they can lift up Romo and try to put him on the same level as top tier QB's when he is actually in the tier 2 category in the minds of many.

I agree about what elite means though. Everyone's opinion differs on that. Case in point....there are a hand full of die hards here who think Romo is elite and it's simply not true.