Triplets and the Hall

[Nors]

Decided to break the 3 down and try and stratify.After reviewing 3 super bowls and a few San Fran games, recollection as well as placing against peers I will rank them.

Aikman - 3 Super Bowls as QB get him into Hall - Right wrong or indifferent. He was clutch in the big games, and a very accurate passer and quite leader. Is he one of the "greatest" at his position and a no brainer first ballot. NOPE. He other than a 4 or 5 year span was unable to carry a football team. In fact really struggled. He's in elite status but outside the best of best. Prognosis - Borderline first vote - will get in

Irvin - Nice posession WR that was feisty and a competitor. Stat wise he's borderline in his era. He's not a Jerry Rice, Carter shoe in but moreso a Monk, Lofton, Brown borderline player. His career has brought him to the door of the hall and in all candid - his arrests and image are the reason he's outside looking in after first vote. I can make a case for or against him. Prognosis - he'll eventually be in.

Emmitt - FIRST BALLOT HALLER! Emmitt is the reason we won 3 Super Bowls. Aikman, Irvin and co are damn lucky to have been part of the Emmitt era and in many ways rode his cape...Emmitt holds most all career records. He controlled the big games and ran this team to greatness. Head and shoulders the best of the triplets. I think as time goes by that will become clearer and clearer! Prognosis - First vote Haller.

 

[Doomsday101]

Decided to break the 3 down and try and stratify.After reviewing 3 super bowls and a few San Fran games, recollection as well as placing against peers I will rank them.

Aikman - 3 Super Bowls as QB get him into Hall - Right wrong or indifferent. He was clutch in the big games, and a very accurate passer and quite leader. Is he one of the "greatest" at his position and a no brainer first ballot. NOPE. He other than a 4 or 5 year span was unable to carry a football team. In fact really struggled. He's in elite status but outside the best of best. Prognosis - Borderline first vote - will get in

Irvin - Nice posession WR that was feisty and a competitor. Stat wise he's borderline in his era. He's not a Jerry Rice, Carter shoe in but moreso a Monk, Lofton, Brown borderline player. His career has brought him to the door of the hall and in all candid - his arrests and image are the reason he's outside looking in after first vote. I can make a case for or against him. Prognosis - he'll eventually be in.

Emmitt - FIRST BALLOT HALLER! Emmitt is the reason we won 3 Super Bowls. Aikman, Irvin and co are damn lucky to have been part of the Emmitt era and in many ways rode his cape...Emmitt holds most all career records. He controlled the big games and ran this team to greatness. Head and shoulders the best of the triplets. I think as time goes by that will become clearer and clearer! Prognosis - First vote Haller.

I think all 3 should make it but I think it is more likely that Aikman and Emmitt make it. I have major doubts that Mike will get the vote. I don't think it is right or fair but I think that is what will end up happening

 

[Ashwynn]

Decided to break the 3 down and try and stratify.After reviewing 3 super bowls and a few San Fran games, recollection as well as placing against peers I will rank them.

Aikman - 3 Super Bowls as QB get him into Hall - Right wrong or indifferent. He was clutch in the big games, and a very accurate passer and quite leader. Is he one of the "greatest" at his position and a no brainer first ballot. NOPE. He other than a 4 or 5 year span was unable to carry a football team. In fact really struggled. He's in elite status but outside the best of best. Prognosis - Borderline first vote - will get in

Irvin - Nice posession WR that was feisty and a competitor. Stat wise he's borderline in his era. He's not a Jerry Rice, Carter shoe in but moreso a Monk, Lofton, Brown borderline player. His career has brought him to the door of the hall and in all candid - his arrests and image are the reason he's outside looking in after first vote. I can make a case for or against him. Prognosis - he'll eventually be in.

Emmitt - FIRST BALLOT HALLER! Emmitt is the reason we won 3 Super Bowls. Aikman, Irvin and co are damn lucky to have been part of the Emmitt era and in many ways rode his cape...Emmitt holds most all career records. He controlled the big games and ran this team to greatness. Head and shoulders the best of the triplets. I think as time goes by that will become clearer and clearer! Prognosis - First vote Haller.

What the hell does stratify mean. Is that even a word. Are you looking for a word like Quantify or Qualify maybe.

 

[burmafrd]

It can be argued that Favre was only really good for about 5 years- and since then he has become a INT machine. So they should equal out at the least. Irvin was right at the top of the numbers when he was forced out; and his production in critical games and the playoffs was always spotlighted.
Of course he is a HOF.

 

[joseephuss]

Decided to break the 3 down and try and stratify.After reviewing 3 super bowls and a few San Fran games, recollection as well as placing against peers I will rank them.

Aikman - 3 Super Bowls as QB get him into Hall - Right wrong or indifferent. He was clutch in the big games, and a very accurate passer and quite leader. Is he one of the "greatest" at his position and a no brainer first ballot. NOPE. He other than a 4 or 5 year span was unable to carry a football team. In fact really struggled. He's in elite status but outside the best of best. Prognosis - Borderline first vote - will get in

Irvin - Nice posession WR that was feisty and a competitor. Stat wise he's borderline in his era. He's not a Jerry Rice, Carter shoe in but moreso a Monk, Lofton, Brown borderline player. His career has brought him to the door of the hall and in all candid - his arrests and image are the reason he's outside looking in after first vote. I can make a case for or against him. Prognosis - he'll eventually be in.

Emmitt - FIRST BALLOT HALLER! Emmitt is the reason we won 3 Super Bowls. Aikman, Irvin and co are damn lucky to have been part of the Emmitt era and in many ways rode his cape...Emmitt holds most all career records. He controlled the big games and ran this team to greatness. Head and shoulders the best of the triplets. I think as time goes by that will become clearer and clearer! Prognosis - First vote Haller.

No one can touch Jerry Rice, but there was a 4 year span where Rice and Irvin were the two best and then there was everyone else. I never saw Irvin as just a possession receiver. He was more than that. No, he didn't run by people, but he used a lot of the field. Career numbers are hard to use because Tim Brown, Chris Carter and other played for so long while Irvin's career was cut short of theirs. In the same manner, another peer of that era Sterling Sharpe's career was cut shorter. I would take Irvin and Sharpe over either Brown and Carter. They were just better.

 

[Hostile]

Insight, gotta love it.

















Wish this thread had some.

 

[slick325]

"Irvin - Nice posession WR that was feisty and a competitor. Stat wise he's borderline in his era. He's not a Jerry Rice, Carter shoe in but moreso a Monk, Lofton, Brown borderline player. His career has brought him to the door of the hall and in all candid - his arrests and image are the reason he's outside looking in after first vote. I can make a case for or against him. Prognosis - he'll eventually be in." -Nors

I stated this in another thread but it needs to be reiterated for some who view Michael as only a "possession" receiver. In the decade of the 1990's only Jerry Rice had more receiving yards. Michael had 10,872 receiving yards in the 1990's. Remember Michael only played in four games in 1999 and only had 167 yds receiving, plus in 1990 he played in 12 games with only 413yds receiving. That says alot when coupled with the fact that he also played with the NFL's All-Time Leading Rusher. Emmitt got a great deal of carries as we all know.

Michael also was in the top ten in receptions for the entire league 4 times: in 1991 ranking 2nd, in 1992 ranking 7th, in 1993 ranking 3rd and in 1995 ranking 5th. In those seasons his avg. per catch were: 16.4 ('91), 17.9 ('92), 15.1 ('93), and 14.4 ('95). His career avg per catch is 15.9 which is not too shabby considering Jerry Rice's is 14.8 per, Cris Carter's is 12.6 per, Tim Brown's is 13.7 per, T.O.'s is 14.7 per, Randy Moss' is 16.0 per, and Marvin Harrison's is 13.3 per. I know he played less years than them, with the with the exception of Marvin, T.O. and Randy, but those are not possession receiver numbers Michael is toting.

Six times he was in the leagues top 10 for receiving yards: 1991 ranking 1st with 1523yds., 1992 ranking 2nd with 1396yds., 1993 ranking 2nd with 1330yds., 1994 ranking 8th with 1241yds., 1995 ranking 4th with 1603yds., and 1997 ranking tied for 8th with 1180yds. Also he was in the leagues top ten five times for receiving touchdowns ('91,'92,'93,'95,'97). All of these coincide with huge years from Emmitt where he frequently had 300 plus carries in those seasons.

All that to say, Michael Irvin is a no brainer pick for the Hall despite off field issues.

 

[junk]

I love these statements about a QB not being able to carry a team.

Name me one that did.

Pretty much every "great" QB typically has had a great supporting staff. Those that haven't had a good team around them have struggled as well.

 

[Nors]

I love these statements about a QB not being able to carry a team.

Name me one that did.

Pretty much every "great" QB typically has had a great supporting staff. Those that haven't had a good team around them have struggled as well.

Yes - and they get labeled as QB's that couldn't win the big games.

 

[Nors]

The guy is borderline, a great player no doubt. But not a surefire 1st ballot.


Seasons among the league's top 10
Receptions: 1991-2, 1992-7, 1993-3, 1995-5

NEVER LED LEAGUE IN RECEPTIONS

Receiving yards: 1991-1, 1992-2, 1993-2, 1994-8, 1995-4, 1997-8t

ONCE LED LEAGUE


Receiving TDs: 1991-9t, 1992-8t, 1993-9t, 1995-10t, 1997-6t

BEST WAS 6TH FOR TD'S

Yards from scrimmage: 1991-4, 1992-10, 1993-8, 1995-9

BEST WAS 4TH

Among the league's all-time top 50
Receptions: 18t
Receiving yards: 14
Receiving TDs: 35t
Yards from scrimmage: 38

THIS IS WHERE IRVIN POTENTIALLY BOGS DOWN. HE'S A TOP 15-20 AT HIS POSITION CAREER

IRVIN WAS A POSESSION WR - NO ONE BETTER AT GETTING THOSE 15 YARD CATCHES! THATS NO KNOCK

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Michael a "POSSESSION RECEIVER"?

Geez Nors, I don't know what games you watched but if Mike was a "POSSESSION RECEIVER", I'll take 2 or 3 of those "POSSESSION RECEIVERS" in this draft.

The fact is Mike was one of the top 2 or 3 dominant and elite receivers of his era...As Mike would say...."PERIOD".

 

[Doomsday101]

Michael a "POSSESSION RECEIVER"?

Geez Nors, I don't know what games you watched but if Mike was a "POSSESSION RECEIVER", I'll take 2 or 3 of those "POSSESSION RECEIVERS" in this draft.

The fact is Mike was one of the top 2 or 3 dominant and elite receivers of his era...As Mike would say...."PERIOD".

I agree Mike was much more than a possession WR he was an all around great talent and as his nick name suggest he was a "Playmaker"

 

[Nors]

I already stated Posesion WR is not a knock. A compliment to his big plays and moving a chain. Lam Jones could have averaged 20 yards a catch but is not a "poisession" WR../...


So he's top 2 or 3 of his era at his position? I agree - Era's are approx to decades. So that puts him at about top 15-20 at his position career wise. And yes - thats right at the Hall of fame gate.

He'll eventually get in, but it wasn't a first vote and no sho'n.

 

[MinnesotaCowboy]

All this nonsense about who was the greatest running back, quarterback, receiver, etc is kinda over-emphasized IMHO! Name me one great player with tremendous stats, leadership ability or anything else that typifies greatness that could carry a team on his own! Montana had equally great teammates, as did Staubach, Aikman, Jim Brown, Smith, and Unitas. Some did not such as Payton (except for one year), Marino, Sayers, Saunders to name a few. One thing they all had in common......they were leaders either by word or deeds! They all deserve to be in HOF along with a lot of others whose names I can't recall (happens when you are an old fart)

 

[slick325]

The guy is borderline, a great player no doubt. But not a surefire 1st ballot.


Seasons among the league's top 10
Receptions: 1991-2, 1992-7, 1993-3, 1995-5

NEVER LED LEAGUE IN RECEPTIONS

Receiving yards: 1991-1, 1992-2, 1993-2, 1994-8, 1995-4, 1997-8t

ONCE LED LEAGUE


Receiving TDs: 1991-9t, 1992-8t, 1993-9t, 1995-10t, 1997-6t

BEST WAS 6TH FOR TD'S

Yards from scrimmage: 1991-4, 1992-10, 1993-8, 1995-9

BEST WAS 4TH

Among the league's all-time top 50
Receptions: 18t
Receiving yards: 14
Receiving TDs: 35t
Yards from scrimmage: 38

THIS IS WHERE IRVIN POTENTIALLY BOGS DOWN. HE'S A TOP 15-20 AT HIS POSITION CAREER

IRVIN WAS A POSESSION WR - NO ONE BETTER AT GETTING THOSE 15 YARD CATCHES! THATS NO KNOCK

Thanks Nors. Just for the record, I wasn't trying to come at you either. I've been having these Irvin Hall of Fame credential battles for the past two Super Bowl/Hall Vote weeks! Especially here in DC with all the Art Monk fans.

Anyway, I think the last part about where Michael ranks in career numbers at his position can be reconciled by the fact that his career was cut short due to injury and it's been 6 full seasons since his departure so of course people will pass him. When he retired those numbers were much better. In fact he was 11th in receiving yards when he left the game. It's the same rationale used to justify Earl Campbell and Gayle Sayers numbers.

I still disagree that he was a possession receiver, he was a number one receiver. Meaning he did everything asked of him on pass routes. Deep, intermediate and short routes. When I think possession wideout I think Keyshawn Johnson. Key rarely is asked to run deep routes while Michael did those frequently hence the 15.9 career yds per catch avg. Moss is not a possession receiver at all and he and Michael have the same avg per catch! By the way, Key's career yds. per are 13.1 and Terry Glenn, our deep threat is at 14.9 yds. per catch for his career.

I don't think Michael was a 1st ballot Hall of Famer if you are one who believes that the honor only belongs to a select few: Marino, Rice, Emmitt, LT, Montana, Elway, Staubach, Bradshaw, Barry Sanders, Munoz, Lott etc. But, he is a sure fire Hall of Famer to me. Definitely 2nd ballot in my opinion because he is a tier below the men I mentioned.

 

[Gibby!]

What the hell does stratify mean. Is that even a word. Are you looking for a word like Quantify or Qualify maybe.

Dictionary.com gotta love it...

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I already stated Posesion WR is not a knock. A compliment to his big plays and moving a chain. Lam Jones could have averaged 20 yards a catch but is not a "poisession" WR../...


So he's top 2 or 3 of his era at his position? I agree - Era's are approx to decades. So that puts him at about top 15-20 at his position career wise. And yes - thats right at the Hall of fame gate.

He'll eventually get in, but it wasn't a first vote and no sho'n.

Nors,

I'm not debating his stats and your comment that he's right at the gate for HOF. Your view is not off-base as far as that goes. I happen to think he should be in the HOF, (maybe not first ballot because he obviously wasn't as good as a first ballot guy like Jerry Rice), but clearly he was one of the top 2 or 3 elite WRs of his era.

What I said was off-base was your use of the term "possession receiver", (even thought you say that's not a negative). The fact is the term "possession receiver" has always been used to refer to guys like Ricky Proehl, who keep the chains moving, but can't consistently give you the big play and doesn't have to be matched against a team's #1 CB.

Yes, Mike kept the chains moving, but he ALSO consistently made HUGE plays for us during our glory years when we had to have them. The list of such plays is too numerous to count.

 

[Nors]

All this nonsense about who was the greatest running back, quarterback, receiver, etc is kinda over-emphasized IMHO! Name me one great player with tremendous stats, leadership ability or anything else that typifies greatness that could carry a team on his own! Montana had equally great teammates, as did Staubach, Aikman, Jim Brown, Smith, and Unitas. Some did not such as Payton (except for one year), Marino, Sayers, Saunders to name a few. One thing they all had in common......they were leaders either by word or deeds! They all deserve to be in HOF along with a lot of others whose names I can't recall (happens when you are an old fart)

Montana had equally great teammates, as did Staubach, Jim Brown, Smith, and Unitas. Some did not such as Payton (except for one year), Marino, Sayers,


Yes, add Montana, Elway, Munoz, White, Simpson, Rice - guys that are slam dunk Hallers. No questions asked. Irvin is not in that elite class. Hence why he's not in yet. In time I sense he makes it.

 

[Echo9]

It can be argued that Favre was only really good for about 5 years- and since then he has become a INT machine. So they should equal out at the least. Irvin was right at the top of the numbers when he was forced out; and his production in critical games and the playoffs was always spotlighted.
Of course he is a HOF.

Correct.

It's could also be argued that he was an INT machine early in his career as well.

But if voter considered the first few years of a players career Steve YOung NEVER would have gotten in.

A few years in the USFL, a few horrendous years with Tampa, a few years on the bench backing up Joe Montana, and a few years playing quite well and getting one Super Bowl victory.

errrrr.....

Can someone remind me why Young was a first ballot HoFer?

 

[Nors]

Dictionary.com gotta love it...

Didn't want to turn this into English class but here it is - thanks Gibb....for the answer.

stratify
a)To arrange or separate into castes, classes, or social levels.
b)To separate into a sequence of graded status levels