Triplets and the Hall

[Nors]

Correct.

It's could also be argued that he was an INT machine early in his career as well.

But if voter considered the first few years of a players career Steve YOung NEVER would have gotten in.

A few years in the USFL, a few horrendous years with Tampa, a few years on the bench backing up Joe Montana, and a few years playing quite well and getting one Super Bowl victory.

QB's get way too much credit for SB wins. Go figure. I wonder how many times anyone ever busted Munoz balls because he never won one? Probably never.

Lets roll Swann induction as a joke out too!

 

[junk]

Yes - and they get labeled as QB's that couldn't win the big games.

Such as? I am waiting for examples of "great" QBs that could carry a team on their own.

 

[Chuck 54]

I wouldn't use all the same words as you, Nors, but your assessment on their place in HOF history is right on, imo. Aikman was not the best QB of his own era because he could not carry a team. Irvin was not the best WR of his era...not even close. Emmitt was not the best RB of his era...Sanders was...but Emmitt wanted it more, and Emmitt has the all time rushing record, so he's the no brainer.

If Barry Sanders had loved the game enough and hadn't been so ticked at Detroit, he would have kept playing and Emmitt would not have ever caught him on the all time rushing list. Emmitt would still be deserving of the HOF, but without that record, he'd be more questionable than he is right now just like Aikman and Irvin.

I think all 3 deserve the HOF, but I don't really care if any of them are first ballot or not...only Emmitt because of the record would really be a crime if it took him another year.

However, the only other player from that era that i would vote for would be Larry Allen...he is above everyone else the first ballot lock....why? because he was indeed the greatest OL of his era...PERIOD.

 

[Ashwynn]

Dictionary.com gotta love it...

I see, thanks for the education.

But unless your a geologist, would you really know this term?

 

[dboyz]

I'm not sure that Irvin gets enough credit for what he did. Aikman was never the same after Irvin went down.

You can put all of the numbers you want out there and Irvin's numbers are pretty good considering his career ended early but for me here is what it comes down to:

It's 3rd and 8 and you need a first down, if you could have any receiver on the field, who would it be? I can't really quarrel with people who would say Jerry Rice, but I would go with Michael Irvin. He made a lot of those kind of tough catches. He was a playmaker BUT he could also convert 3rd downs when needed. That 90's Dallas offense was a ball control offense and Irvin was a huge part of that. He also had big games at important times.

I think Irvin should even more of a slam dunk than Aikman. Just my .02

 

[Nors]

Such as? I am waiting for examples of "great" QBs that could carry a team on their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nors
"Yes - and they get labeled as QB's that couldn't win the big games."

So all Great QB's were just bus drivers on great teams?

Great QB's elevate their teams -

Staubach always did that
Elway carried lesser teams to Super Bowls in career
Marino constantly was carrying teams
Tark constantly took average teams far
Brady has carried a generic offense


Aikman is a Haller - but he operated with arguably the best Offensive Line ever, the best RB ever, A future Haller in Irvin and Novacek and Moose at TE, FB. Once that eroded late and early on without he languished.

COUPLED WITH THE FACT THE 1992-1995 Defenses were all top 3 defenses in the day.

 

[Nors]

I see, thanks for the education.

But unless your a geologist, would you really know this term?

No biggie - I will not try and molecularize this any further.

 

[junk]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nors
"Yes - and they get labeled as QB's that couldn't win the big games."

So all Great QB's were just bus drivers on great teams?

Great QB's elevate their teams -

Staubach always did that
Elway carried lesser teams to Super Bowls in career
Marino constantly was carrying teams
Tark constantly took average teams far
Brady has carried a generic offense


Aikman is a Haller - but he operated with arguably the best Offensive Line ever, the best RB ever, A future Haller in Irvin and Novacek and Moose at TE, FB. Once that eroded late and early on without he languished.

COUPLED WITH THE FACT THE 1992-1995 Defenses were all top 3 defenses in the day.

Was the offensive line that good? Or did the skill players make it look good? Newton and Tuinei were both undrafted. Step was a later round guy.

Novacek was a Plan B free agent who did nothing until teamed with Aikman.

Elway never won anything until he was surrounded by great talent.

Staubach had loads of talent on both sides of the ball.

Tark had a terrific defense. Same for Brady.

Marino was drafted by the defending AFC Champs. They certainly didn't have any talent in place.

Maybe, just maybe, people look at this the wrong way. Maybe Aikman wasn't good because of the people around him, maybe the people around him were good because of Aikman.

Its kind of hard to elevate the play of the Wane McGaritys and Chris Brazzells of the world.

A QB of Aikman's caliber on the team now and the team probably should be talking Super Bowl.

 

[rcaldw]

I used to think Nors new a little about football, (worried me), but his insights on Aikman puts my fears to rest.

 

[rcaldw]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nors
"Yes - and they get labeled as QB's that couldn't win the big games."

So all Great QB's were just bus drivers on great teams?

Great QB's elevate their teams -

Staubach always did that
Elway carried lesser teams to Super Bowls in career
Marino constantly was carrying teams
Tark constantly took average teams far
Brady has carried a generic offense


Aikman is a Haller - but he operated with arguably the best Offensive Line ever, the best RB ever, A future Haller in Irvin and Novacek and Moose at TE, FB. Once that eroded late and early on without he languished.

COUPLED WITH THE FACT THE 1992-1995 Defenses were all top 3 defenses in the day.

If it is the best offensive line ever, how are you sure we had the best running back ever? If we had the best running back ever, how are you sure we had the best offensive line ever?

I know I might get in trouble for this, but you don't know squat.

 

[joseephuss]

If it is the best offensive line ever, how are you sure we had the best running back ever? If we had the best running back ever, how are you sure we had the best offensive line ever?

I know I might get in trouble for this, but you don't know squat.

The best offensive line ever will only get 1 player in the HOF in Larry Allen. Allen wasn't around for 1991, 1992 and 1993, which were very good seasons for Emmitt, Troy and Michael.

 

[rcaldw]

The best offensive line ever will only get 1 player in the HOF in Larry Allen. Allen wasn't around for 1991, 1992 and 1993, which were very good seasons for Emmitt, Troy and Michael.

Exactly right

 

[Nors]

If it is the best offensive line ever, how are you sure we had the best running back ever? If we had the best running back ever, how are you sure we had the best offensive line ever?

I know I might get in trouble for this, but you don't know squat.

Emmitt Smith is one of the greatest RB's ever. Period.

Remember to put that sucker back in after your diaper change kid.

 

[Gibby!]

I see, thanks for the education.

But unless your a geologist, would you really know this term?

lol, I think this is the definition he was going for:
To develop different levels of caste, class, privilege, or status

 

[rcaldw]

Emmitt Smith is one of the greatest RB's ever. Period.

Remember to put that sucker back in after your diaper change kid.

Aikman is one of the greatest QB's ever, period. Only someone who doesn't know squat about football would try to separate him out from the running back, WR's, TE and linemen. Dude, its a team sport and winning don't lie. More wins than any QB in any one decade. Get it? And don't worry, you don't bother me that badly. I would have to care what you think a lot more than I do.

 

[Nors]

Aikman is one of the greatest QB's ever, period. Only someone who doesn't know squat about football would try to separate him out from the running back, WR's, TE and linemen. Dude, its a team sport and winning don't lie. More wins than any QB in any one decade. Get it? And don't worry, you don't bother me that badly. I would have to care what you think a lot more than I do.

I SRATIFIED THE TRIPLETS AS FOLLOWS:

Emmitt Smith
Troy Aikman
Michael Irvin

Emmitt is one of the greatest ever, First ballot Haller. If YOU READ WHAT I SAID- I stated Troy too is a Hall of famer - but a step below Emmitt and a borderline first ballot inductee.

Maybe you should care before you read/post.

 

[rcaldw]

I SRATIFIED THE TRIPLETS AS FOLLOWS:

Emmitt Smith
Troy Aikman
Michael Irvin

Emmitt is one of the greatest ever, First ballot Haller. If YOU READ WHAT I SAID- I stated Troy too is a Hall of famer - but a step below Emmitt and a borderline first ballot inductee.

Maybe you should care before you read/post.

I read your post and that is what I wrote what I wrote. If you think a 3 time Super Bowl winning QB and the winningest QB of any decade is borderline, you are certified.

 

[BIGDen]

The guy is borderline, a great player no doubt. But not a surefire 1st ballot.


Seasons among the league's top 10
Receptions: 1991-2, 1992-7, 1993-3, 1995-5

NEVER LED LEAGUE IN RECEPTIONS

Receiving yards: 1991-1, 1992-2, 1993-2, 1994-8, 1995-4, 1997-8t

ONCE LED LEAGUE


Receiving TDs: 1991-9t, 1992-8t, 1993-9t, 1995-10t, 1997-6t

BEST WAS 6TH FOR TD'S

Yards from scrimmage: 1991-4, 1992-10, 1993-8, 1995-9

BEST WAS 4TH

Among the league's all-time top 50
Receptions: 18t
Receiving yards: 14
Receiving TDs: 35t
Yards from scrimmage: 38

THIS IS WHERE IRVIN POTENTIALLY BOGS DOWN. HE'S A TOP 15-20 AT HIS POSITION CAREER

IRVIN WAS A POSESSION WR - NO ONE BETTER AT GETTING THOSE 15 YARD CATCHES! THATS NO KNOCK

When he retired he was 9th in receptions and receiving yards all-time in a career that was cut short by injury. He was an All-Decade selection, 3-time SB champion, owns the NFL record for most 100 yard receiving games in a season, I believe he is the greatest postseason WR in history aside from Rice statistically (those stats are very difficult to find, but I think it's true). Lynn Swann had TE #s at best (300 something receptions?!) with one more ring and he's in. Please don't tell me about border line Hall of Famer! If they don't vote him in it's because they are the same idiots that have Harry Carson waiting, yet put in Dan Hampton! Irvin should be a lock, but the system and the voters are a joke.