USADA bans Lance Armstrong for life, stripped of tour titles *Merge*

Chocolate Lab

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I'm with jterrell and Mash. I don't think there's any doubt he doped. If you notice, in his statement he doesn't even claim he didn't... It's all that he never failed a test, which isn't the same thing.

And I'm no expert on this case, but I thought I read yesterday that the USADA had lots of evidence that they haven't released yet because they were working on a bigger case. But they say it will come out in time.

I don't know if he is guilty or not guilty. I personally don't care. I've developed enough of an opinion about the man to decided it doesn't matter to me.
I think this is the real reason so many people are outraged.
 

Duane

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Pretty good read but I don't know how much, if any of this, is true.

From Im_No_Expert_but on Reddit:

http://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/yqer4/usada_to_ban_lance_armstrong_for_life_strip_tour/c5xzfwx

It's an extrajudicial process.
It's essentially a private organization making its own rules, so the Federal court ruled that they didn't have jurisdiction. Kind of like if a private school gives you a punishment for running in the halls even though you didn't; none of that is up to the courts.

Everyone KNOWS he won the titles, so "stripping" him of them is basically saying "nuh-uh!"

Also the UCI (International Cycling Union) disagrees with USADA, and it's only because of some very poorly-thought-out reciprocal agreements that this can even happen.

Basically WADA has agreements with the major sports bodies, but then ALSO gave all its "franchises" (each country's __ADA) its same powers, meaning that ANY franchisee in ANY country can start proceedings against anyone anywhere, regardless of their ability to defend themselves in that venue.

USADA started this off with banning several doctors and staff who are EUROPEAN CITIZENS for life because they didn't respond within 5 days or whatever the requirement is to this U.S.-based inquisition.

And yes, "franchise" is correct because this operation was run not by some officer of the law, but the CEO of USADA. Travis Tygart has had it in for Lance for a long time; when Floyd Landis was busted, Tygart offered him a sweet deal if he would dish dirt on Lance.

The Department of Justice actually ran a Grand Jury investigation for 2 years before dropping the case in February -- apparently, someone eventually realized that winning the first 6 tours in a row for the US Postal Service wasn't "defrauding" them of their sponsorship dollars. Some of the people called to testify are still active riders in the pro peloton, which are presumably in the "10+ witnesses" Tygart would call on, which means he didn't care about ACTIVE riders who were part of the same alleged doping ring; he just cared about trying to destroy public opinion about Lance, who was retired from cycling and last won in 2005.

Lance didn't have the option of a trial, only binding arbitration with a 3-person panel. Binding arbitration is bad enough for your cell phone contract, but imagine it applying to your job -- and not just to your current job, but a LIFETIME ban on working at all in your entire field.

And even if you win, it's not until after USADA has dragged your name through the mud, issues press releases about their allegations, makes false claims, and then publishes a report with all the allegations and dirt to further hurt your public image, and nothing prevents them from doing it all again later. (One of USADA's pieces of "evidence" was the biological passport values from the 2009-2010 comeback which fluctuated, which an expert in a Cycling News report already said could fluctuate from either doping OR natural causes; but USADA trumpeted that it automatically meant cheating. It's pre-trial by Press Release, without expert testimony.)

USADA can essentially end the career of anyone it chooses to at any time, based on its own say-so, from riders to doctors all the way down to support staff. This is incredible leverage it can use to compel a "witness" to testify the way it wants them to.

This isn't even comparable to prosecutors using deals to get small fish to testify against a bigger fish, because not only are there no juries or judicial oversight, but this private organization DOESN'T need to prove anything -- they can stop you from competing immediately by simply opening an investigation.

Lance was about to run Ironman France when Tygart announced the investigation, which immediately suspended Lance from being able to compete at all, anywhere, indefinitely. If he wanted, he could wait until the day before a grand tour to suspend his alleged witnesses, leaving their teams scrambling, and keep them suspended for the entire racing season. This is enormous leverage and doesn't require a single doping test.

So it isn't enough to pass the tests and never be sanctioned for a doping violation; they can unilaterally decide to ban you for life anyway, so what's the point of the tests?

There are people who just competed in this year's Tour de France, and who are competing right now in the Vuelta a España (Tour of Spain), who HAVE been sanctioned for doping violations, yet are still allowed to ride.
Besides the two expected witnesses who perjured themselves so badly that they would be completely unusable in an actual courtroom (Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton), another of the pieces of so-called "evidence" that Tygart wanted to use was 6 urine samples from the 1999 Tour de France, a case which had already been investigated by the UCI's own appointee, and it EXONERATED Lance. The investigator was the director of the Netherlands national anti-doping organization, and wrote in his exhaustive, 132-page report:
the failure of the underlying research to comply with any applicable standard and the deficiencies in the report render it completely irresponsible for anyone involved in doping control testing to even suggest that the analyses results that were reported constitute evidence of anything.
(p. 17) PDF link: http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news/2006/jun06/vrijmanreport.pdf
It was an epic beatdown. WADA screamed bloody murder, even though under their own regulations, they had stored the samples under the agreement they would never be used for sanctions of any kind!

Since the samples were EXPLICITLY not to be used for sanctions, they didn't follow the chain-of-custody regulations, were NOT anonymous, and sat in a freezer for 6 years that was accessible like any other research materials to any number of people.

Chain of custody is ESSENTIAL to handling samples, and it is already established in every context that a broken chain of custody equals completely worthless non-evidence.

This would be like if the cops impounded your car, then sold it at auction, and then 6 years later whoever is driving it gets pulled over, cops search the car, find drugs, and then want to charge YOU. It was obviously out of their "secure" impound facility the entire time, and the drugs could have come from anywhere -- including being forgotten by the cops after using the vehicle in an undercover sting operation (which I seem to recall actually happening in a story covered by Reddit).

Moreover, the French national anti-doping lab in question regularly leaks its findings to the French paper L'Equipe, which has a notorious anti-Lance POV (they really didn't like him winning their tour every single year).
This would be something like if you went for a drug test for your job, and before anyone else got the official results, your worst enemy on Facebook posted the "results" given to him from his buddy at the lab that coincidentally showed you used certain substances that were also sitting in the lab research supplies. Let's see, people with a motive and a grudge who have access to your samples with no chain of custody and know exactly which samples are yours and suddenly find a "positive" years after the fact?

As a cyclist, Lance's Tour de France years were under the auspices of the UCI, which claimed sole jurisdiction over this case, which USADA ignored because they could use their WADA connection as a loophole. The UCI also has an 8-year statute of limitations, and doesn't vacate titles after that even if doping is ADMITTED later, as happened some years back with 1996 winner Bjarne Riis who runs Team Saxo Bank. Jonathan Vaughters just admitted to doping and he runs Team Garmin.

But USADA is now trying to ban the director of Lance's team, who ISN'T an admitted doper, solely because of his connection to Lance. Tygart wants to claim it was a conspiracy and the whole team was doped up, yet curiously is not trying to stop any of the OTHER ex-teammate riders he claims were cheating just like Lance, and who are still competing, presumably in exchange for their testimony.

This seemingly violates USADA's charter, as it is charged with stopping doping, yet is letting CURRENT riders continue on just to nail someone who RETIRED from cycling and last won 7 years ago.

The whole process is the definition of a kangaroo court. The anti-doping agencies ONLY get clout and increase their budgets by busting people; if busts don't happen, people will begin wondering what the point of the doping agencies IS, exactly. There's no bigger fish than Lance, so CEO Tygart is probably counting on a big fat funding increase next year based on being able to abuse power like this.

Imagine how much fear he will be able to strike into athletes' hearts AFTER this, twirling his moustache and swinging his riding crop about, as he struts about imperiously: "I am zee one who took down Lance, you think I cannot take down you?" (Cue evil laugh)

There are no effective safeguards for athletes. Tiger Woods left college early because he couldn't stomach the arrogance and control exercised by the NCAA. Basically anyone in a position of power wants to use it, and it's always for something bad -- without them, you'd just do whatever you were going to do ANYWAY, so the powers are exclusively negative. They can't exercise their power by giving you the ability to play ball; they can only exercise their power by taking that ability away.

Contrary to the assertion that Lance "accepted" USADA's decision, he instead refused to go into binding arbitration with Travis Tygart, refusing to acknowledge the CEO of USADA's personal vendetta as legitimate. Both Lance and the UCI agree that the UCI is the only legitimate party with jurisdiction, as the UCI has announced publicly.
 

MapleLeaf

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WPBCowboysFan;4683711 said:
They should be banned from roadways and restricted to bike paths and side walks.

...I prefer to walk on sidewalks that are free of cyclists. To many close calls with them and especially when I am walking the dog.

They have momentum and a metal machine on their side during a collision.
 

jterrell

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a_minimalist;4683782 said:
I love how you pretend to know these two things and present them as if they are fact.

It doesn't matter if he did or didn't anymore. What matters is that they've harassed him for years without being able to provide more than hearsay. Hopefully you're never presented to the judicial system and found guilty based on hearsay alone, because that's not fair. That's something any free person should be afforded, proven facts that is. Everyone should be innocent until proven guilty.

hearsay by multiple people who've been with him training and using?
actual urine that failed tests?
multiple tests that came back inconclusive?
multiple ties to doctors caught providing these drugs to others?


i am more likely to believe in big foot than lance armstrong's PED chastity.
if one chooses to believe in the tooth fairy so be it.

USADA swears they have tons of evidence. We'll never know but Lance does. And again I am 'sure' that has ZERO to do with him dropping his challenge to the ruling.

i dont hate lance or barry bonds. both are still tremendous athletes and i respect their contributions to their sport. but i dont think either were free of PED.

then again neither is about 80% of the NFL. using something as simple as very low test which is can be prescribed and taken legally could extend your NFL career by a couple years. a low does of constant test with hgh and you can extend it by at least 5. it is almost dumb not to use when you look at it financially. well except for the whole not real sure what the after-effects will be thing because long term studies are nil.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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In this Country, you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. You can say that you think he did it or that you believe he did it but unless it's proven, that's all you are supposed to be able to do. You don't strip somebody because you think he's guilty.
 

JBond

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jterrell;4683768 said:
ROFL. Let's be very clear here. Lance Armstrong ABSOLUTELY used PEDs and blood doping. He was irregular in more tests than cleared. He was able to challenge a few results and get them dismissed but top cyclists are good at this. They do it for a living. Not just ride but also beat tests. Technology has improved and so has testing. They have Lance's blood and urine still and can conduct tests. Lance gave up this fight because he knew he couldn't win.

All that said, Lance is still an amazing guy. He has raised more money for cancer research than just about anyone.

But he is very human. He has made the same mistakes other humans make. The same mistakes other cyclists make.

Time to simply move on and let his legacy be the fight against Cancer.

Only truly pathetically naive people believe he is innocent of all charges. The "proof" would have been presented had he challenged this USADA finding. That's EXACTLY why he didn't.

:rolleyes: This is a completely ridiculous post. Why are you making crap up? Over 500 tests and not one positive result with the exception of cortisone that was prescribed for a legitimate reason by a real doctor.

Haters will hate. I think you need to do a little more research on this topic before babbling about pathetic people. Good grief. Pathetic is the proper word for your uniformed ramblings.

Got to love the interwebs where anyone can say any old stupid thing like it was a fact.
 

YosemiteSam

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jterrell;4683768 said:
ROFL. Let's be very clear here. Lance Armstrong ABSOLUTELY used PEDs and blood doping. He was irregular in more tests than cleared. He was able to challenge a few results and get them dismissed but top cyclists are good at this. They do it for a living. Not just ride but also beat tests. Technology has improved and so has testing. They have Lance's blood and urine still and can conduct tests. Lance gave up this fight because he knew he couldn't win.

All that said, Lance is still an amazing guy. He has raised more money for cancer research than just about anyone.

But he is very human. He has made the same mistakes other humans make. The same mistakes other cyclists make.

Time to simply move on and let his legacy be the fight against Cancer.

Only truly pathetically naive people believe he is innocent of all charges. The "proof" would have been presented had he challenged this USADA finding. That's EXACTLY why he didn't.

Umm. You have no proof and neither does USADA. You are straight talking out of your ***. You look the fool with statements like that. You should not post in this thread.
 

CanadianCowboysFan

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ABQCOWBOY;4687752 said:
In this Country, you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. You can say that you think he did it or that you believe he did it but unless it's proven, that's all you are supposed to be able to do. You don't strip somebody because you think he's guilty.

that only applies in courts, not on webboards etc

I agree with you but sport is different, at least in the world according to USADA or WADA etc
 

Rynie

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The30YardSlant;4682852 said:
Meh, they were all juicing. The difference was that Lance did it after cancer and sans-testicle.

He's still one of the most amazing athletes ever.
One of my old bosses is an avid cyclist (rides up to 40 miles in a day). He's met Lance Armstrong a few times. He said he's just the BEST. Even before he started winning Tour de France, he said they'd all be riding...Lance would come up from behind...say "hey guys" and just take of in front of all of them. That's awesome.
 

jterrell

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JBond;4688847 said:
:rolleyes: This is a completely ridiculous post. Why are you making crap up? Over 500 tests and not one positive result with the exception of cortisone that was prescribed for a legitimate reason by a real doctor.

Haters will hate. I think you need to do a little more research on this topic before babbling about pathetic people. Good grief. Pathetic is the proper word for your uniformed ramblings.

Got to love the interwebs where anyone can say any old stupid thing like it was a fact.

You are the one that needs to research the facts.

Instead of repeating weak-willed statements without regard to the truth.

USADA had his blood re-tested. They say he failed. He says I refuse to challenge you so that evidence isn't admissible anywhere.

Even his most ardent supports say he doped. EVERY major cyclist was doping. It is virtually impossible to compete at that level without doping.

There are multiple ex-teammates willing to testify against him.

Is this a tiresome witch hunt? YES. Is he innocent of ever using PEDs? Heck no.

Now ride off on your unicorn to Atlantis.
 

jterrell

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How do you respond to Lance saying he's passed close to 500 drug tests?
"Look, we've asked to see the proof of that. I'm not sure that's accurate. At the end of the day, we know athletes, and Marion Jones made the same claim. There were the '99 Tour de France samples that were retested. There was the 2001 evidence that we have that there was [something] suspicious indicative of EPO use that didn't go forward. There was the '99 glucocorticosteroid and we have evidence of cover-up of that positive. And then we included the analytical data from '09 and '10 that, in our charge letter, clearly indicates manipulation of his blood at that time. That is corroborated by other evidence that we have."

How did they beat the tests?

"One was they would use plasma expanders. They would use saline expanders so they would have notice of the test or they would delay being tested and then they would use substances that would easily mask the things they were doing. They were also using things like blood transfusions … which, unfortunately, there's not a current test for. There's good indications that can be drawn from that data I just mentioned to you of the '09 and '10 blood data that we have and presented to him."

Do you think most riders used?
"At that time, I think, not unlike baseball in the late 90s and early 2000s, the culture of drug use overtook the rules. I think, like Senator Mitchell, we got handed a really bad, terrible set of facts, and we had an obligation to weed through those facts and appropriately and responsibly piece those facts together. Our number one objective, and this was told to every athlete that we spoke to, including Lance Armstrong, was to ensure that the doctors, the sport director that's still in the sport, are no longer allowed to continue to advising young athletes and grooming young athletes to do what we've seen this U.S. Postal Service team do."
 

CanadianCowboysFan

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Who do you give the titles to though, the second place finishers all doped at some point as well.

If they all cheated, he was just better than them.
 
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