Video: Woody and Mangini on Cowboys using the Two TE system

[cowboyjoe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFMktTA2Y3g&feature=player_embedded
[youtube]iFMktTA2Y3g&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

 

[CashMan]

At work, might you recap it?

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

At work, might you recap it?

Basically the same thing that has been said on this forum a multitude of times.

Can create mismatches, comparisons to the Patriots and so on.

However there was on interesting tidbit on there.

They showed a stats graphic.

In 2011 the Cowboys ran a 2 TE set 500+ times
In 2012 the Cowboys ran a 2 TE set 300+ times.

So there was decent sized drop off.

The other interesting part of it was that 2012 the Yards Per Play on offense basically dropped a full yard compared to 2011. The other stat was that there were 20 TDs on offense in the two TE set in 2012 vs 12 TDs in 2011.

 

[speedkilz88]

Cowboys Two TEs

2011 561 (plays) 5.9 (yds per play) 20 (TD)
2012 329 (plays) 4.8 (yds per play) 12 (TD)

 

[TheRomoSexual]

Cowboys Two TEs

2011 561 (plays) 5.9 (yds per play) 20 (TD)
2012 329 (plays) 4.8 (yds per play) 12 (TD)

Yeah, I didn't realize the discrepancy was that extreme. Interesting stuff.

 

[Hoofbite]

Basically the same thing that has been said on this forum a multitude of times.

Can create mismatches, comparisons to the Patriots and so on.

However there was on interesting tidbit on there.

They showed a stats graphic.

In 2011 the Cowboys ran a 2 TE set 500+ times
In 2012 the Cowboys ran a 2 TE set 300+ times.

So there was decent sized drop off.

The other interesting part of it was that 2012 the Yards Per Play on offense basically dropped a full yard compared to 2011. The other stat was that there were 20 TDs on offense in the two TE set in 2012 vs 12 TDs in 2011.

There was but there are factors involved.

Trailing almost every week and having to abandon 2TEs in favor of 3WRs likely played a huge role.

Also, possibly how they count Phillips when he was filling in basically at FB for Fiametta in 2011.

Any loss of production from the 2TE formation was likely picked up by the 3WR formation. If you compared 2011 numbers for the 3WR formation to the 2012 numbers I'd bet there's a pretty strong argument that could be made in going away from the 2TE set and opting for more 3WR set.

 

[17yearsandcounting]

Ive heard the same crap since they drafted Bennett. Jason needs to do it or get canned for foolishly chasing something he doesnt understand.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Exactly. There are other factors involved. Losing Laurent Robinson was probably one big one, along with the O-line playing worse.

Another thing... Why did we run the 2-TE so much less last year? Because Bennett was supposedly worthless. Was John Phillips so much worse than him? If so, you'd think he'd be out of the league instead of getting a decent contract from the Chargers.

And the question is even greater when you consider that Robinson was gone, and we were weak at the third WR until Harris showed up late in the year.

 

[Hoofbite]

There are a number of reasons Dallas hasn't had great success from the 2TE set.

1. They didn't utilize that package enough when compared to only other 2TE team in New England. Bennett got less than 50% of the snaps during his time in Dallas.

2. When they did use it they basically had Bennett block 60% of the time. He even said himself that all he did was block, block, block.

3. When they did allow him to go out on a route they never threw the ball to him.

It's not like just having 2TEs out there will give you some advantage. You have to prove that they can actually hurt the defense before the defense will respect them. If you run that package half the time, have a guy block a majority of it and never look his way when he isn't blocking there's no way that defenses aren't going to adjust.

This is why the idea of a blocking TE is ridiculous. You can't sub in a guy who can block and allow the defense to counter. If both your TEs cannot be receivers and blockers, you might as well just hold up a giant flag that tells the other team when you are going to have the TE block and when you are going to have him go out on a route.

 

[jjktkk]

There are a number of reasons Dallas hasn't had great success from the 2TE set.

1. They didn't utilize that package enough when compared to only other 2TE team in New England. Bennett got less than 50% of the snaps during his time in Dallas.

2. When they did use it they basically had Bennett block 60% of the time. He even said himself that all he did was block, block, block.

3. When they did allow him to go out on a route they never threw the ball to him.

It's not like just having 2TEs out there will give you some advantage. You have to prove that they can actually hurt the defense before the defense will respect them. If you run that package half the time, have a guy block a majority of it and never look his way when he isn't blocking there's no way that defenses aren't going to adjust.

This is why the idea of a blocking TE is ridiculous. You can't sub in a guy who can block and allow the defense to counter. If both your TEs cannot be receivers and blockers, you might as well just hold up a giant flag that tells the other team when you are going to have the TE block and when you are going to have him go out on a route.

Very well said Hoof. Both of your TEs in the 12 offense have to be receiving threats.

 

[visionary]

There are a number of reasons Dallas hasn't had great success from the 2TE set.

1. They didn't utilize that package enough when compared to only other 2TE team in New England. Bennett got less than 50% of the snaps during his time in Dallas.

2. When they did use it they basically had Bennett block 60% of the time. He even said himself that all he did was block, block, block.

3. When they did allow him to go out on a route they never threw the ball to him.

It's not like just having 2TEs out there will give you some advantage. You have to prove that they can actually hurt the defense before the defense will respect them. If you run that package half the time, have a guy block a majority of it and never look his way when he isn't blocking there's no way that defenses aren't going to adjust.

This is why the idea of a blocking TE is ridiculous. You can't sub in a guy who can block and allow the defense to counter. If both your TEs cannot be receivers and blockers, you might as well just hold up a giant flag that tells the other team when you are going to have the TE block and when you are going to have him go out on a route.

You are dangerously close to saying that our 2 TE set was less effective in 2012 than 2011 because our offense is somewhat predictable

This would fall at the feet of our OC/HC

This would not go over very well with usual suspects

 

[Idgit]

There are a number of reasons Dallas hasn't had great success from the 2TE set.

1. They didn't utilize that package enough when compared to only other 2TE team in New England. Bennett got less than 50% of the snaps during his time in Dallas.

2. When they did use it they basically had Bennett block 60% of the time. He even said himself that all he did was block, block, block.

3. When they did allow him to go out on a route they never threw the ball to him.

It's not like just having 2TEs out there will give you some advantage. You have to prove that they can actually hurt the defense before the defense will respect them. If you run that package half the time, have a guy block a majority of it and never look his way when he isn't blocking there's no way that defenses aren't going to adjust.

This is why the idea of a blocking TE is ridiculous. You can't sub in a guy who can block and allow the defense to counter. If both your TEs cannot be receivers and blockers, you might as well just hold up a giant flag that tells the other team when you are going to have the TE block and when you are going to have him go out on a route.

Like any set, the effectiveness of the 12 set is going to depend on the abilities of the players you have on the field. With Bennett here, we were one of the top five teams in the league in terms of frequency of use of the 12 set. Comparing our snaps to NE's snaps, given the players NE has at TE, is not a good measure of what 'using it enough' should mean.

And the point of the set is to make a defense decide which personnel to use. If they go heavy, you spread them out and pass into it. If they go light, you run the ball at them. If you're defending the Dallas offense, there's a good chance you're going to invite them to run more often than you'll be inviting them to pass. And when you pass, why give the ball to Bennett when Witten, Dez, and Miles are all better players and more reliable catching the ball? There's a reason why we let Bennett walk.

Now, I would agree that it's not that easy to find two players who can both play on the line, block well, and be serious threats split out. That's what's kept us from being even more effective with the 12 sets overall under Garrett. Hopefully, they got it right this time. One thing's for sure, we averaged ~8 fewer 12 set snaps/game last season than we did in 2011. If Escobar helps bring those averages up, it'll be a plus in terms of what we want to be able to do offensively.

 

[NextGenBoys]

Ive heard the same crap since they drafted Bennett. Jason needs to do it or get canned for foolishly chasing something he doesnt understand.

You mean since they drafted Fasano in 2006.

 

[Hoofbite]

Like any set, the effectiveness of the 12 set is going to depend on the abilities of the players you have on the field. With Bennett here, we were one of the top five teams in the league in terms of frequency of use of the 12 set. Comparing our snaps to NE's snaps, given the players NE has at TE, is not a good measure of what 'using it enough' should mean.

How about we compare sub-50% snaps over a span of years as what would be expected from a 2nd round pick.

Either way it isn't enough. Jerry said the results from Bennett weren't on par with what they wanted so what other option is there? Bennett be both successful and produce on the level that was expected while also riding the bench half the time? Clearly the expectations were higher and it's unreasonable to assume that he wouldn't have been on the field more if he were more successful.

And the point of the set is to make a defense decide which personnel to use. If they go heavy, you spread them out and pass into it. If they go light, you run the ball at them. If you're defending the Dallas offense, there's a good chance you're going to invite them to run more often than you'll be inviting them to pass. And when you pass, why give the ball to Bennett when Witten, Dez, and Miles are all better players and more reliable catching the ball? There's a reason why we let Bennett walk.

So why even go with the 2TE system at all? I mean, Escobar isn't going to be better than Dez, Miles or Witten in terms of having Romo's confidence or pass catching. Maybe on par in catching but that remains to be seen no matter how highly he was regarded in that area in college.

I'm well aware of the intent of the package. My point is, Dallas won't get any sort of different results if they have to pull Escobar because he cannot block. The only way it works is if he can remain on the field.

Now, I would agree that it's not that easy to find two players who can both play on the line, block well, and be serious threats split out. That's what's kept us from being even more effective with the 12 sets overall under Garrett. Hopefully, they got it right this time. One thing's for sure, we averaged ~8 fewer 12 set snaps/game last season than we did in 2011. If Escobar helps bring those averages up, it'll be a plus in terms of what we want to be able to do offensively.

That's probably also the reason that most teams are content with 1 good TE. Most would probably be tinkled pink to have Jason Witten.

I'm not sure what set snaps/game really matters. The offense was basically just as productive. Nearly identical in yardage and points. So more points came from the 3WR set because Dallas ran that more often......not sure what the difference is other than some preference.

The emphasis 2TE set has likely bee a bigger waste of resources than it has been a benefit. The team had better hope they got it right this time or else they'll get more of the same.

 

[BaybeeJay]

I do not know the Patroit offense very well at all, but I have been under he impression that Aaron Hernandez is not a great blocker. If so, it points to a 2TE system in which your 2nd TE does not necessarily need to excell at that aspect of the game to take advantage of the defense. I may be wrong though.

 

[arglebargle]

....


So why even go with the 2TE system at all? I mean, Escobar isn't going to be better than Dez, Miles or Witten in terms of having Romo's confidence or pass catching. Maybe on par in catching but that remains to be seen no matter how highly he was regarded in that area in college.

....

Laurent Robinson's one year in Dallas shows that if you do a good job and run your routes well, you will get the ball. He wasn't even on the team the full year, but his dependability got him a lot of touches. And, apparantly, lead to fewer interceptions.

 

[NextGenBoys]

The emphasis 2TE set has likely bee a bigger waste of resources than it has been a benefit. The team had better hope they got it right this time or else they'll get more of the same.

Exactly. It's why I hate the 2nd round picks for TE's so much, especially when we spent a 3rd on a WR, when we already have a fairly deep WR core with the emergence of Harris, and Beasley should be on the radar given his skill suit.

 

[reddyuta]

I do not know the Patroit offense very well at all, but I have been under he impression that Aaron Hernandez is not a great blocker. If so, it points to a 2TE system in which your 2nd TE does not necessarily need to excell at that aspect of the game to take advantage of the defense. I may be wrong though.

Aaron hernandez lines up all over the place-fullback,RB,slot WR and TE.you cannot compare Escobar with Hernandez at all.To me the Escobar pick has the biggest potential to be a bust.

 

[speedkilz88]

Aaron hernandez lines up all over the place-fullback,RB,slot WR and TE.you cannot compare Escobar with Hernandez at all.To me the Escobar pick has the biggest potential to be a bust.

Escobar moved around for SD St. He's expected to do that for the Cowboys.