West Coast QB

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by rwalters31, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. rwalters31

    rwalters31 Well-Known Member

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    Some time back I saw a U-Tube video on the West Coast offense showing Bill Wash talking and Joe Montana doing the step though. The video had Joe doing 3 step, 5 step, and 7 step drop plays. Bill indicated that at the end of each of the 3, 5, and 7 drops the ball is thrown. each of those drop plays has a predetermine step distance, speed, and stance.

    My point is who every they bring in should be aware of these or has the West Coast Offense changed?
     
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  2. xwalker

    xwalker Well-Known Member

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    Fans/media loves easy labels.
    • West Coast "Horizonal" Offense vs Coryell "Vertical" Offense.
    • Defense 4-3 vs 3-4.
    • Man vs Zone coverage.
    • Man vs Zone blocking.
    Modern Schemes are more complex than the labels.

    Modern Schemes vs Historic Schemes
    All modern schemes have incorporated elements of the Bill Walsh offense as well as elements of the Don Coryell offense.

    Back then the NFL had been focused on the running game and passing offenses had been simplistic. That's why those 2 schemes got headlines. They were the beginnings of the modern passing focused offenses.

    Modern schemes (except the Garrett scheme) are more complex and can't be as easily categorized.

    It's easier to explain the evolution on Defense.
    It's similar with Defensive schemes. Fans like to latch on to easily defined concepts like 4-3 & 3-4; however, most modern schemes (except Marinelli) use multiple fronts. The Pats use a different front 7 alignment on each down/distance situation. They used 4-3 on 1st downs last season but more 3-4 on 1st downs this season but their 2nd and 3rd down fronts can't really be defined as either.
    The Pats use:
    3-4
    4-3
    4-3 with stand-up DEs
    1-6
    inverted 3-4 (wide 3)
    - Similar to 4-3 but with 1 DT.
    - The other DT replaced by a LB.

    3-3-5 (Nickel version of wide 3-4
    Uses the wide 3 man DL (4-3 DEs with 1 DT).

    Even within the multiple alignments, the Pats vary the personnel. They might put a 320 pound DT out aligned as a 4-3 DE, etc..

    Back to Offense
    The running game has evolved also.
    In the 1990s the Broncos with Head Coach Mike Shannan and OL coach Alex Gibbs were using the Zone Blocking scheme when basically all other teams were using man blocking.

    Now almost all teams use some of both; although the ZBS can vary widely.

    The Rams and 49ers are both primarily Zone Blocking offenses; however, the Rams almost always use 1 RB, 1 TE, 3 WRs sets. When they use 2 TEs their 2nd TE is just a big WR (6-3, 239).

    The 49ers use a FB more than most other teams (they used a FB more than any team in 2018); however, they use Zone Blocking instead of the tradition man blocking associated with using a FB. Their FB played 68% of the snaps in a game this season and averaged 50% for the season; however, their running game is NOT similar to the nineties Cowboys with Moose at FB.
     
  3. kskboys

    kskboys Well-Known Member

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    I think inserting more ball control aspects to the O will benefit us greatly. Swing passes, screens, short passes over the middle, stuff like that.
     
  4. cowboyec

    cowboyec Well-Known Member

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    I think Dak and Co., are gonna do great in McCarthy's offense.
     
  5. Irvin88_4life

    Irvin88_4life Well-Known Member

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    Dak can play well in any system, I think the team needs to be balanced and attack other teams weakness. If passing is weakness then pass heavy, if run is the weakness than run heavy.
     
  6. cowboyec

    cowboyec Well-Known Member

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    that was something garrett never figured out.
     
  7. Irvin88_4life

    Irvin88_4life Well-Known Member

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    Just look at the Vikings game this season. Dak was killing them and so even he went down the field and got in the redzone they decided to run it 3 times. Against teams like the Bills, Zeke was killing them so let's throw it 50 times.
     
  8. cowboyec

    cowboyec Well-Known Member

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    "hey.....it's a monsoon today and over there is the best secondary in the league....lets throw it".

    he had no feel for in-game decisions....he won't run it at seattle on the goal-line in '17...but will vs minny even tho they're stopping it.
     
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  9. kskboys

    kskboys Well-Known Member

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    And we've been doing this for a long time now. Never made sense.
     
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  10. ThatJerryKid

    ThatJerryKid cowboys31

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    I loved all the deep shots we took this year. Dak took 0 in his first couple of years but was completely different this year. I hope this new offense doesn’t take that away.
     
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  11. Irvin88_4life

    Irvin88_4life Well-Known Member

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    It's just insane. I'm so happy he is gone
     
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  12. Irvin88_4life

    Irvin88_4life Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree
     
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  13. garyo1954

    garyo1954 Well-Known Member

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    Although I don't disagree with anything there, where the designation of the system comes from basically is determined by the coach; where he learned it; the concepts involved; etc.

    Its not a matter of the media or the fans giving it a name. The fans, for the most part wouldn't know a wishbone from a veer. Coaches learn concepts and offenses and add their own wrinkles. That becomes their base offense.

    Certainly they borrow from other schemes, takes others plays, formations, and incorporate those into their own system.

    Here's a site that explains the 5 main NFL offensive systems and which teams are running them. You'll notice in their explanation they include: "Some offenses utilize a mix of each strategy, with an implementation of their own unique styles. Others stick pretty close to the script and play a more disciplined game."

    https://hydeandzeke.com/every-nfl-team-offensive-tendencies/
     
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  14. MikeB80

    MikeB80 Well-Known Member

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    the bengals were running the zone blocking under sam wyche while shanahan and gibbs were running the offense under Dan reeves in Denver in the 80's. So were the browns.

    zone blocking was in the nfl before shanahan and gibbs.
     
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  15. Risen Star

    Risen Star Likes Collector Zone Supporter

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    I actually think this is a terrible fit for Prescott as footwork, reading the field and ball placement are so critical in a West Coast offense. I'm counting on McCarthy to adjust once he sees this QB in action.
     
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  16. America's Cowboy

    America's Cowboy Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, K, which is why I hope McCarthy and the Cowboys go after Texas Longhorns H/Slot WR Devin Duvernay somewhere around the 4th or 5th round if he's available. Duvernay has the speed, hands and ability to make short throws and pick up big RAC yards or even take it to the house, plus he is a good blocker as well. His biggest problem is that he plays with stiff hips, thus forcing him to round off cuts/plays at times, thus hurting his ability to create better separation at times. With a better WRs coach, now that Sanjay Lal is gone, Duvernay could develop into a very good WR in the mold of Cobb or Beasley but with more speed, more RAC yards and better ability to take it to the house.

    https://i.postimg.cc/qMk9jRJY/20200110-191015.jpg
     
  17. xwalker

    xwalker Well-Known Member

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    There is a reason I used the phrase "basically all other teams instead of "all other teams". It means not literally all other teams.

    Did I say that the Broncos were the 1st to ever use zone blocking? The answer is no.

    The difficulty of posting information on a sports message board is that if not all obvious details are explained in detail, then some idiot pipes up thinking they "know something" and attempt to counter the primary point of a post.

    On the flip side, if a post has too much information with too many details, then most sports fans don't have a long enough attention span to handle it.

    The Zone Blocking scheme most similar to modern zone blocking schemes was the one used by the Broncos with Alex Gibbs as the OL coach.

    Zone Blocking originated in college.

    Jim McNally with the Bengals (as you mentioned) was considered the first OL coach to being zone blocking to the NFL.

    The issue with the McNally OLines is that his system was designed to work with existing players because NFL GMs and scouting departments were not well versed in acquiring the OLinemen specific to zone blocking. When he first came to the NFL in 1980, OLinemen were still not massive behemoths in part because back in the day OLinemen were often pulling put in space on sweeps, etc.

    Alex Gibbs with Shanahan were first together in the NFL 1984 with the Broncos (Shanahan as OC).

    By 1995 when Shanahan became the Broncos HC and hired Gibbs as the OL coach, the team made an All-In committment to the ZBS including in the draft and free agency. Alex Gibbs didn't have to "make it work" with existing players.

    The even targetted acquiring RBs specific to the ZBS (Gibbs was a hard-arse type coach and many RBs and OL didn't meet his requirements from a mental perspective).

    Jim McNally was with the Panthers in the mid nineties and Giants late nineties to 2000s but it was the Broncos that were committed to the ZBS in all aspects.
     
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  18. MikeB80

    MikeB80 Well-Known Member

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    since you called me an idiot.

    Howard Mudd was techincally the first guy to bring zone blocking to the nfl with the browns when Schottenheimer hired him. McNally took Mudd's system from cleveland and installed it with the bengals.
     
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  19. xwalker

    xwalker Well-Known Member

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    Again, my original post was not about the 1st coach or team to ever use zone blocking in the NFL.

    Vince Lombardi had something he called area blocking that "could" be considered the original.

    Howard Mudd used area blocking concepts and he evolved to using inside zone blocking in the early days of zone.

    Alex Gibbs was the mastermind of what became modern zone blocking unless you are calling Pat Kirwan a liar. Kirwan has been an nfl coach, and nfl scout, has worked in an nfl front office, has been a writer for cnnsi & nfl.com, has had an nfl radio show on Sirus and his voice has been used in the Madden video game.

    Kirwan wrote a book:
    Take-Your-Eye-Off-Ball

    In that book Kirwan credits Alex Gibbs as the mastermind of what evolved into the modern ZBS.

    Another book was written by an SI writer (Tim Layden) mostly known for writing about horse racing titled:
    Blood, Sweat & Chalk

    Layden claims Howard Mudd invented the ZBS. Layden did NOT interview Alex Gibbs and his writing on the subject was entirely based on interviews with Mudd.

    In reality:
    Mudd dabbled with what is now called inside zone in the early days. ; however, It is the outside zone that has caused the popularity of the ZBS in recent decades. Alex Gibbs brought that to the NFL.

    Gibbs, Kirk Ferentz and some others had used outside zone in college before it was used in the NFL. Ferentz might have been the first to feature it.

    Again, my original post was not about who was first or who should get credit.
     
  20. starcity214

    starcity214 Well-Known Member

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    Underrated post.

    West Coast offenses require a QB that has silky smooth feet (watch Garroppolo drop back) and pinpoint accuracy.

    Dak can't have those "the receiver had a chance to catch it" throws because most routes in the west coast offense are horizontal and a bad throw can easily become a tip ball by the receiver and INT.

    We will see..
     

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