West Coast QB

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by rwalters31, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. ABQCOWBOY

    ABQCOWBOY Regular Joe....

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    Lombardi actually learned that from, I want to say Allie Sherman. Both Lombardi and Bud Grant learned it and each took it on, Lombardi to Green Bay and Grant to Minnesota so the origins of that scheme go way back. Again, it's like "WC Offense" right? There is a long history behind it and truth be told, it didn't start in San Francisco. In fact, most modern passing game schemes can be traced back to Sid Gillman in one way or another. I mean, it is what it is right? Nothing is really new in the game of Football. It's all been done before, at one time or another. Sometimes something is rediscovered or rebranded but it's not new.

    I know you know all this X.
     
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  2. garyo1954

    garyo1954 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Most everything is a wash, rinse, repeat with a few things added, modded, or changed.

    Last person to do the wash gets to name it whatever he wants.

    So it seems.
     
  3. ABQCOWBOY

    ABQCOWBOY Regular Joe....

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    Pretty much. I mean, I don't kid myself about how great I am because I understand something that somebody else figured out long before I was even born. On the contrary, LOL....... I might pour myself a couple fingers of whisky and drink to that person but I get it. I'm learning off what somebody else figured out and I'm cool with it.
     
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  4. garyo1954

    garyo1954 Well-Known Member

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    I'll drink to that! Many of these older coaches didn't have the internet to teach them. They had to figure it out themselves and then it was passed along by word of mouth
     
  5. CowboysLegends2

    CowboysLegends2 Well-Known Member

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    Good stuff. Thanks for sharing the link.
     
  6. ABQCOWBOY

    ABQCOWBOY Regular Joe....

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    Exactly right. You actually learned it by working under a great Coach and teaching it to the players as an assistant or what have you. In those days, a couch might spend years learning from a Great Coach and then moving on and taking that knowledge with them. Passing it on to the next guy. To me, it was a better way of doing it, if slower, because you not only learned the info but you learned why it worked, you learned why you didn't do certain things in certain ways and you learned why you did do certain things in a prescribed manor. You don't get that anymore. Now, you watch a youtube clip or whatever and you believe you know it but the problem is, you don't know what you don't know. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's much better then having no access to the info and it allows for many, many more to gain knowledge but you don't necessarily learn the message correctly. Not like you used to. Same issues surround things like manual skills. People no longer know who to be real master machinists, they no longer know how to actually carve furniture from wood, they no longer know how to fix a car. It is what it is but that's just my opinion on it.
     
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  7. CowboysLegends2

    CowboysLegends2 Well-Known Member

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    I see your point but I thought it might actually help Dak since he won’t have to hold onto the ball for so long waiting for the play to develop. It shouldn’t take long to find out if I’m wrong since the int’s should come early and often if he can’t adjust.

    Either way, one positive is with the offense using more screen passes maybe the defense will learn how to defend it.
     
  8. ABQCOWBOY

    ABQCOWBOY Regular Joe....

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    To me, the problem with defending is that you really can't hit anymore. It's one thing to see it on Video but it's another then to actually go out there and practice execution of it. Execute the block or execute the stack and the shed, execute the tackle and learn and practice doing it right. Players don't that anymore because you really only have one day of live hitting in a week. There is no time to practice any of that stuff anymore, which is why you see crappy defense being played. It's why I've said for a very long time, and I know a lot of younger fans don't agree, that players and teams are not as good as they used to be in the NFL.

    I hate it but that's how it is now.
     
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  9. CowboysLegends2

    CowboysLegends2 Well-Known Member

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    You are right for sure. NFL in general has gotten worse. From dropped passes to open field tackling. Looks much sloppier than it did before they stopped practicing.

    What drove me crazy was the mental part of it. Screens are difficult but common. Green Bay was the first game I remember getting roasted by them but after that there was no excuse. When a LB sees penetration and guards and center start moving out there should be a recognition that they are setting up for a block and start slicing through them to get to the ball. That part is mental but every game we saw screen plays rolling this defense for 20+ yards multiple times a game. It was maddening to see nobody learn from it even going into the last game of the year.
     
  10. kskboys

    kskboys Well-Known Member

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    Prescott is supposedly good at reading the field. We'll find out soon.
     
  11. Flamma

    Flamma Well-Known Member

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    Interesting that you brought that up. Whenever I go back and watch games from the late 70s through the 80s I notice that a lot. That ball is out at the end of their drops or shortly after. Not a lot of dancing around and holding on to the ball in the pocket.
     
  12. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

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    Fans seem to underrate Daks ball placement. Dak's completion percentage in tight windows is top 10 for example.

    The Cowboys were already running tons of digs and drags ie horizontal routes you are worried about

    Dak's feet improved dramatically this past season particularly from a consistency standpoint.
     
  13. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

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    He is both aggressive in average depth of throws and has a low interception percentage. You don't get that way if you cannot read defenses.
     
  14. Little Jr

    Little Jr Well-Known Member

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    Who so whoever? OC? QB coach?
     
  15. starcity214

    starcity214 Well-Known Member

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    Are you serious?

    That "tight window" stat is stupid and let me explain why..

    Dak sees a WR running a 10 yard comeback route..

    Usually, QBs throw the ball before the WR comes back and the ball hits the WR just as he is coming back towards the QB and the WR, by default, will have some separation on this route if a QB throws the ball with anticipation.

    Dak? He usually only throws the ball after the WR has come back allowing the CB to close the gap and make the throw a contested catch.

    Although the Throw was technically a "tight window" throw it really should have been an easy 10 yard throw if Dak had any spatial awareness or anticipation.

    Don't trust in odd stats, you can nake them say anything.

    And buddy, I'm not the only one doubting Dak's accuracy.

    Jerry himself has been quoted as saying "Dak can get the ball close enough to where a WR has a chance"

    Also

    "Dak is missing by yards in training camp, not feet like he used to"

    And how can we forget the fact that both Carr and Garrett beat Dak in simple throwing contests where there were no schemes, no WRs, and no defensive linemen to worry about..


    But hey, you believe what you want.
     
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  16. morat1959

    morat1959 Well-Known Member

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    How some can’t see and acknowledge the obvious is beyond me.
     
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  17. Number1

    Number1 Well-Known Member

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    frankly Dak and Zeke will do well in any system - it's called raw talent

    the statements listed in this forum covering what is orisn't a WCO are rather inaccurate

    so for the record -
    the so called WCO is what evolved from the mind of Paul Brown's trap and shoot
    TSO. "timing system" O's evolved from the mid of Sid Gilman

    both are works of absolute geniuses and are the 2 core systems run in the NFL

    WCOs focus on beating in the flats, it force the D to focus between defending the flats from either run/pass
    it makes your LBs make ugly choices ... particularly either play the run or the pass

    TSOs. are about forcing the D to focus on either the run / deep pass
    either your Ss stack the box or allow 1 on 1 deep

    there are 32 different hybrid versions using each in the modern NFL
    but the terminology needs to use one or the other
    note, the Boys, NO, and SEA are the purest versions of theTSO, with KC, PHL, and LAR doing WCOs

    MM with Rodgers made a WCO w/ deep passing work with deep passing, that's rare

    The WCO requires lightning quick QB reads. the TSO serious brians ... WHY?

    In the WCO the QB has a set progression and doesn't need to think much, just throw to the 1st open read

    In the TSO the read progression is set at the LOS, you general position your X for 1 on 1, and is 1st target

    in both systems you need a serious TE to move the chains consistently

    either can use the run to set up the pass or vise versa depending on personnel and match up

    both systems offer incredible versatility in play calling, both are works of genius
    you could literally call thousands on different plays in the huddle
    and audible to thousands of different plays at the LOS

    the changle to MM will be switching terminology and getting both on the same page
    much like Rodgers, Dak's strong suites are disciplined progressions and buying time to go down field

    BTW, the numbers Dak put up in the last season and a half with new faces and no true X are stunning

    also of note, in 2019 Kellen and Garret, tried something I've never seen before ...
    a TSO with 3 or 4 different WRs playing X every game - that took guts, and put up near 5,000y passing
    that is an amazing mental achievement - never likely to be duplicated
    the last point demonstrates the type of brains, focus, and comm Dak brings to the game

    the changle to MM will be switching terminology and getting everyone on the same page

    of the players currently on the roster - Jarwin has the toughest transition

    with Zeke and Dak on the field expect a heavy dose of play action deep - he has to get it - he's the glue

    the playbook has to get to everyone ASAP with few changes during the off season to be contenders
     
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  18. Redball Express

    Redball Express All Aboard!!!

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    So many times I have been completely befuddled with our coaches and playcalls.

    Leading up to games..the media would underline injury reports about DBs being limited and should be attacked.

    Instead, we would not do anything like that or do t a couple of times then go back to running Zeke or throw short to Witten and go to the sideline.

    Why?

    Will this coaching staff do this or do why play aggressive as logic would suggest and try to win games?
     
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