What did we give up in the RW Trade?

[dstew60105]

Galloway got hurt and ultimately ended up playing on very bad teams with bad QB play. Otherwise nobody would complain.

Moss ended up going to peanuts because he was a dog in Oakland. He played like crap and acted like a turd. He went to a good team with a great QB and had a great yr, then disappeared in the postseason and they lost the super bowl.

If Roy has a big yr this yr and becomes a solid #1 WR, he was worth what we gave up for him, without question.

totally agree. People act like 1st round picks all turn into hall of fame players. RW was easily worth what we gave up. Who was there at #20 that we HAD to have? Who was there that was better then RW? Who was there at #20 that could have helped this team this year more then RW?

 

[superonyx]

Teams have set the value of WRs at no higher than a 2nd round pick.

Perfect then lets trade next years number 2 pick for Larry Fitzgerald and the next years for Andre Johnson.

 

[burmafrd]

1. At the time of the trade many were already talking about how weak the first rd of the 2009 Draft would be even with the underclassmen. So the VALUE of our First Rd pick - which would have been around 20- was less than normal.

2. If this was Roy Williams as he came out of Texas he would have been at LEAST a top 10 pick. What would we have needed to get from 20 to 10? A lot more then a 3rd.

3. There was no WR in this years draft that would be considered better then Roy was as he came out.

4. Rookie WRs rarely make an impact- usually takes until their 3rd season to really blossom. There are exceptions but they are rare.

5. Any WR we took in the draft could be a bust. At the very least we have a very good WR. Much less of an unknown factor then ANY DRAFT PICK.

6. Even with the current uncertainty with the CBA and salary cap and such you do not keep top players beyond their first contract very often. So the time frame for any draft pick is around 5-7 years. So we will get as much time out of Roy as we probably would out of any pick even if they really was good.

So when you factor in everything it was a good deal NOW. And if Roy can duplicate his Pro Bowl year its a VERY GOOD DEAL. We could not have gotten any proven receiver better then roy or even as good for what we gave. And a drafted WR has all sorts of extra risks.

 

[dbair1967]

Perfect then lets trade next years number 2 pick for Larry Fitzgerald and the next years for Andre Johnson.

that was a point I was gonna make too in reply to that statement, and its a good one

 

[speedkilz88]

It simply comes to is who would you prefer as your #1 this year and more. Roy Williams or Jeremy Maclin? Jerry most likely would have used the 1st and 3rd to trade up for him when he fell.

 

[kmd24]

That doesn't make any sense at all. That's like saying, "I know I paid $10,000 more for that car than I needed to but since I couldn't think of anything better to do with that money it's OK."

If you want to give the Cowboys front office more credit than they deserve, you could assert that they didn't think they would like the players they thought would be available at the position they supposed they would be picking. That's a lot of supposing.

I think it's pretty clear that Jerry just wanted Roy, and he blinked in the negotiations with Detroit. I do think there is some credence to the idea that Jerry was suspecting that Dallas would have the 32nd pick in the draft and was devaluing it. In fact, had I been negotiating for Detroit, that's exactly the angle I would have taken, mostly because I think it plays into Jerry's blind spot - his ego.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

I can't remember if we gave up a first and third or 2 firsts and a third. Do we have our first round pick in the next draft?

Whatever it wuz it wuz too much.

Now it is up to RW to make all his detractors SHUT UP!

Let's get on the RW Bandwagon and support him!!!

 

[theogt]

If you want to give the Cowboys front office more credit than they deserve, you could assert that they didn't think they would like the players they thought would be available at the position they supposed they would be picking. That's a lot of supposing.

When they made the trade, the college regular season was more than half over and Dallas was 4-2. I think they had a pretty firm grasp on both what the draft would be like and where they would likely be drafting at that point. It's not rocket science, so you're not giving them more credit than they deserve.

The draft was extremely weak. One of the weakest in recent memory. It was an extreme, so there was not much supposing to be done. It wasn't as if they needed to have such certainty as to know "X, Y, or Z player will be available between slots 20-32."

 

[speedkilz88]

If you want to give the Cowboys front office more credit than they deserve, you could assert that they didn't think they would like the players they thought would be available at the position they supposed they would be picking. That's a lot of supposing.

I think it's pretty clear that Jerry just wanted Roy, and he blinked in the negotiations with Detroit. I do think there is some credence to the idea that Jerry was suspecting that Dallas would have the 32nd pick in the draft and was devaluing it. In fact, had I been negotiating for Detroit, that's exactly the angle I would have taken, mostly because I think it plays into Jerry's blind spot - his ego.

Jerry had been trying to get Roy from them for some time and they finally came down enough for Jerry to pull the trigger.

 

[burmafrd]

Fact was this last draft was pretty weak in the first rd especially. It was known at the time. At best we were looking at a mid 20's pick and maybe closer to 30. Jerruh had wanted Roy for while and he figured the price was worth it. So do I.

 

[AdamJT13]

Well now obviously I am talking about in a trade.

What difference does that make? You're saying a team would spend a top-10 pick on Troy Williamson or Ted Ginn but wouldn't trade it for Larry Fitzgerald?

Now that you're here, do you have any info on what WRs have been traded for over the past 10 years or so?

Not at the moment, but I can see if I can find something. I guarantee you that trades of non-disgruntled, 26-year-old Pro Bowl receivers are extremely rare. If Williams had been holding out or was a proven troublemaker, then you might be able to compare the trade to others made recently. But that wasn't the case.

 

[kmd24]

I think you are the one who is confused. I can look online to see what Gold is selling for right now. In fact it is at $1006 per ounce as of this moment. See, a set price based on what the market says it is worth today.

Gold is a really bad analogy. There is an efficient market for the buying and selling of gold, meaning that there are forces in play that drive asking prices towards bid prices. If someone wants to sell gold for $1100 an ounce, he won't find a buyer.

There is no efficient market for starting wide receivers. Even though there are a lot of rumors about guys on the block, there are hardly ever any trades made.

NFL trades follow the market rules of low volume stocks, not commodities like gold.

 

[kmd24]

When they made the trade, the college regular season was more than half over and Dallas was 4-2. I think they had a pretty firm grasp on both what the draft would be like and where they would likely be drafting at that point. It's not rocket science, so you're not giving them more credit than they deserve.

The draft was extremely weak. One of the weakest in recent memory. It was an extreme, so there was not much supposing to be done. It wasn't as if they needed to have such certainty as to know "X, Y, or Z player will be available between slots 20-32."

Maybe, but Jerry is rumored to have been negotiating from as far back as November of 2007. I don't think anybody really knows what he was thinking, but it seems presumptuous to think that they were pursuing RW based on the value of the draft picks they traded.

Now, I am not saying that it was a bad trade, but I do think that Jerry agreed to more than any other team would have. Nevertheless, I am not convinced that Detroit would have parted with RW for much less. That front office makes terrible decisions, and holding on to RW when they could have had, say, a first and a fifth, is exactly the kind of bad decision they would make.

So in this case, Jerry was forced to meet the probably unreasonable demands of Detroit to get a guy that he thought might be the missing piece to a Superbowl run. I think both sides made out OK, and arguing about the cost is just splitting hairs.

 

[rkell87]

think of it this way say everything is the same as last year(knowing roy and stats ect) except we head into 2006 draft(cause they have had the time to be evaluated)

would you rather have bobby carpenter and jason hatcher....or roy williams?

or say we would pass on bobby for a wide receiver which that year only one ws taken in the first...santonio holmes.

i still take roy.

or we can use 2005. we pick at 20.... does a 1st and a 3rd get us to pick at #11? i dont think so but say for ****s and giggles it does. then its a bad trade cause we miss out on ware.

but do you think there was a ware type talent in 2009? i dont and i think we over paid but i think it was a good trade and i was excited to get him and am still excited to have him.

 

[CrazyCowboy]

What did we give up for Roy Williams? Too darn much IMO.

I don't believe in giving up multiple picks, including 1st rounders, for WRs. They just aren't that important. Jerry seems to be in love with big name WRs though and has made more trades for them than for any other position if I recall.

We haven't developed a top WR that we drafted since Michael Irvin, and he was drafted before Jerry bought the team.

We have drafted 19 WRs since Jerry bought the team and the only ones that have done anything for us are Alvin Harper, Kevin Williams, and Patrick Crayton, and none of them were all that except Harper who made a nice compliment to Irvin.

Jimmy Smith & Willie Jackson went on to have success elsewhere and Antonio Bryant seems to have figured things out finally. The rest either didn't make it at all in the NFL or played a handful of games as backups and/or STs guys.

Eventually, we are going to have to draft a WR early and develop him.

I would have to see if I can find all the WRs we have traded for and what we gave up for them, but just going by memory, there were a bunch and it was a LOT.

We will find out tomorrow if it was too much

 

[theogt]

Gold is a really bad analogy. There is an efficient market for the buying and selling of gold, meaning that there are forces in play that drive asking prices towards bid prices. If someone wants to sell gold for $1100 an ounce, he won't find a buyer.

There is no efficient market for starting wide receivers. Even though there are a lot of rumors about guys on the block, there are hardly ever any trades made.

NFL trades follow the market rules of low volume stocks, not commodities like gold.

This is, of course, neither here nor there, because the analogy had nothing to do with whether they were similar markets in terms of volume, which is all you're referring to, but rather had to do with the fact like in any market, the "value" of the item changes with the circumstances.

 

[theogt]

Maybe, but Jerry is rumored to have been negotiating from as far back as November of 2007. I don't think anybody really knows what he was thinking, but it seems presumptuous to think that they were pursuing RW based on the value of the draft picks they traded.

Now, I am not saying that it was a bad trade, but I do think that Jerry agreed to more than any other team would have. Nevertheless, I am not convinced that Detroit would have parted with RW for much less. That front office makes terrible decisions, and holding on to RW when they could have had, say, a first and a fifth, is exactly the kind of bad decision they would make.

So in this case, Jerry was forced to meet the probably unreasonable demands of Detroit to get a guy that he thought might be the missing piece to a Superbowl run. I think both sides made out OK, and arguing about the cost is just splitting hairs.

Presumptuous to think that they based what to trade for Roy Williams on how they valued such trade material?

Holy cow, what else would they base it on? Why not give more? Why not trade the entire draft for him? Why not sell the team for him? Of course they're going to look at what they're giving up.

Previously, they had wanted to trade us Calvin Johnson. Remember what those guys wanted? They wanted our first round pick and either of Jason Witten or DeMarcus Ware. Do you think Jerry valued those guys and said it's not worth? The Lions where on another planet in their demands and they eventually came down to a price that Jerry was willing to pay, and that had everything to do with how Jerry valued those 1st and 3rd round picks.

 

[Boyzmamacita]

If Roy has a big yr this yr and becomes a solid #1 WR, he was worth what we gave up for him, without question.

This is a point that is lost on so many. Those who think they can predict the future (and that future is bleak), don't even consider the fact that if RW11 turns out to be a solid #1, then a 1st and a 3rd (the 6th pick was a wash because we got a 7th in return) is just right for a young veteran #1 receiver.

 

[MONT17]

RW trade may have trumped the Joey trade.

 

[kmd24]

This is, of course, neither here nor there, because the analogy had nothing to do with whether they were similar markets in terms of volume, which is all you're referring to, but rather had to do with the fact like in any market, the "value" of the item changes with the circumstances.

All you are saying is that there is a market for WR, a point I fully agree with.

However, I was directly addressing the idea that there is a "set" price for WR's. Volume affects whether there is an "agreed upon" value for an item. When there is little volume, the price is influenced mostly by the individual's perception of the value. When there is a lot of volume, the price is influenced mostly by what all the other sellers are asking and what the buyers are paying. That's market efficiency, and you need volume to achieve it.

That's why saying that the market has set the price of a WR is at X doesn't make sense.

The big question is who's perception of RW's value influenced this trade the most. The way things went down, I think it's pretty obvious that Detroit's perception was the dominant influence.