What Mike Rowe Has to Say About the National Anthem Protest

[JoeKing]

Based on the last poll, 44% and falling. There was a 9% drop in disapproval after Trump spoke. So I guess it will eventually hit 34%, like his approval rating.

Polls. Those polls did a great job of predicting the election last year. Stop it.

 

[Doomsday]

It amazes me just how many people support the Republicans even though everything that they do and stand for only benefits that 1%, they continuously buy the American dream, trickle down nonsense when everything that the Republicans do makes their life worse. We need less government and lower taxes, is their favorite topic and yet no Republican has ever lowered taxes or reduced government. They spend more and more and layer every bill with tons of red tape and loopholes to give big business breaks at the expense of the rest of us.

It amazes me Democrats actually think you can tax our society into prosperity and that trickle up economics is the answer to poverty.

You want to see making life worse, just look at Detroit and other major cities destroyed by 30 plus years of liberals policies.

I don't need to rely on the government to make my life better, I work hard to develop skills so I can get ahead in life.

 

[JoeKing]

It amazes me just how many people support the Republicans even though everything that they do and stand for only benefits that 1%, they continuously buy the American dream, trickle down nonsense when everything that the Republicans do makes their life worse. We need less government and lower taxes, is their favorite topic and yet no Republican has ever lowered taxes or reduced government. They spend more and more and layer every bill with tons of red tape and loopholes to give big business breaks at the expense of the rest of us.

Your ignorance astounds me, no wait... you support Democrats, never mind.

 

[Tabascocat]

How would single payer bankrupt the country?
You realize we are actually paying more for healthcare today than we would under a single payer system right? So shaving the 18% admin cost health insurance company’s charge for administration would somehow bankrupt the country? Do you even understand how a single payer system works?

I think everyone should read up on the pros and cons of single-payer, or Medicare for all. This topic might need its own thread.

I don't want to get in to deep on this one but there are some things worth pointing out. The pros are obvious and it sounds fantastic on the surface. I do have some concerns though. First and foremost, taxes would almost assuredly go up.....corporate and sales wise. I do not think it would raise state and federal though.

There can also be long wait times for certain surgeries and procedures. My wife has done her fair share on many coming down from Canada because they could not wait any longer.

Another problem is those with pre-existing/difficult conditions. They will most likely have to get additional insurance through the private-pay market.

One more problem: Within the next 10 years, there is going to be a boom in aging patients. There would not be sufficient medical personnel to handle that influx. I saw some numbers and it could be around 100k professionals short. That will result in lack of access in quite a few regions.

I like the idea of single-payer but I don't think it is that simple to just switch over. It will not bankrupt our country(just raise taxes) but there could be an array of difficulties that will take years to surface.

I would love it if the House all got together and devised some type of healthcare plan containing parts of single-payer and ACA. There has to be something out there in the middle. I don't think universal or Obamacare alone is the answer.

I see the problems in the VA and it makes me hesitant to let the government control all of that

 

[blindzebra]

Your ignorance astounds me, no wait... you support Democrats, never mind.

No I support the human race...all of it...the only ignorant thing in here are those who believe anything that comes out of Trump's mouth.

 

[JoeKing]

No I support the human race...all of it...the only ignorant thing in here are those who believe anything that comes out of Trump's mouth.

I'm part of that human race too and I'm not feeling that support you bragging about. Maybe because it's just another of your lies. Trump isn't perfect but he was a better option than what the Dems offered. Please give us a better option in 2020.

 

[superonyx]

I'm a veteran and you ask me that? You don't know what you are talking about.

So answer the question then.
How will single payer bankrupt the country?
You said it will now explain how.

 

[blindzebra]

I'm part of that human race too and I'm not feeling that support you bragging about. Maybe because it's just another of your lies. Trump isn't perfect but he was a better option than what the Dems offered. Please give us a better option in 2020.

Or have an election that wasn't rigged by the Russians. We will have a new president well before 2020.

 

[JoeKing]

So answer the question then.
How will single payer bankrupt the country?
You said it will now explain how.

Single-payer will bankrupt our country, because it's more than we take in for just healthcare. It's never going to work, but that's what Dems do. They have no idea what the consequence will be, and it will be horrible, health care, where you'll wait on line for weeks to even see a doctor. Raise taxes and it's still not enough and the healthcare we get is rationed. That's no good.

 

[superonyx]

I think everyone should read up on the pros and cons of single-payer, or Medicare for all. This topic might need its own thread.

I don't want to get in to deep on this one but there are some things worth pointing out. The pros are obvious and it sounds fantastic on the surface. I do have some concerns though. First and foremost, taxes would almost assuredly go up.....corporate and sales wise. I do not think it would raise state and federal though.

There can also be long wait times for certain surgeries and procedures. My wife has done her fair share on many coming down from Canada because they could not wait any longer.

Another problem is those with pre-existing/difficult conditions. They will most likely have to get additional insurance through the private-pay market.

One more problem: Within the next 10 years, there is going to be a boom in aging patients. There would not be sufficient medical personnel to handle that influx. I saw some numbers and it could be around 100k professionals short. That will result in lack of access in quite a few regions.

I like the idea of single-payer but I don't think it is that simple to just switch over. It will not bankrupt our country(just raise taxes) but there could be an array of difficulties that will take years to surface.

I would love it if the House all got together and devised some type of healthcare plan containing parts of single-payer and ACA. There has to be something out there in the middle. I don't think universal or Obamacare alone is the answer.

I see the problems in the VA and it makes me hesitant to let the government control all of that

Thanks for the non emotional thought out response..
I am very knowledgeable and educated in single payer health care so please accept my input into the pros and cons as well.

Corporate and sales taxes are not impacted in any way by single payer. The system is entirely funded by its own payroll tax similar to social security tax we pay now. There are variation in proposals but typically the additional payroll tax for employees amounts to 2-3%. Then your employer pays a 6% payroll tax on your earnings. This happens today with SS tax. But remember you will no longer have to have health insurance premiums deducted from your pay and your employer will no longer have to pay big premiums each month for your coverage. A family policy today cost about 20k per year between you and your employer. In most cases the new tax will be less than you are paying for health insurance. There will be no pre existing conditions issues since everyone is covered regardless. You would not need to pay copays or have these deductibles like we have today.

The myth that Canadians are running across our border for medical care has been disproven many times. It’s a Corp talking point that tries to scare people away from a better system.

The wait times in Canada are only for elective procedures not necessary procedures. So if you need to wait an additional 30 days for a knee replacement it isn’t the end of the world and most would rather wait then pay the high deductible they pay under our current system.

 

[JoeKing]

Thanks for the non emotional thought out response..
I am very knowledgeable and educated in single payer health care so please accept my input into the pros and cons as well.

Corporate and sales taxes are not impacted in any way by single payer. The system is entirely funded by its own payroll tax similar to social security tax we pay now. There are variation in proposals but typically the additional payroll tax for employees amounts to 2-3%. Then your employer pays a 6% payroll tax on your earnings. This happens today with SS tax. But remember you will no longer have to have health insurance premiums deducted from your pay and your employer will no longer have to pay big premiums each month for your coverage. A family policy today cost about 20k per year between you and your employer. In most cases the new tax will be less than you are paying for health insurance. There will be no pre existing conditions issues since everyone is covered regardless. You would not need to pay copays or have these deductibles like we have today.

The myth that Canadians are running across our border for medical care has been disproven many times. It’s a Corp talking point that tries to scare people away from a better system.

The wait times in Canada are only for elective procedures not necessary procedures. So if you need to wait an additional 30 days for a knee replacement it isn’t the end of the world and most would rather wait then pay the high deductible they pay under our current system.

You expect us to believe all that BS you just laid down?

 

[superonyx]

Single-payer will bankrupt our country, because it's more than we take in for just healthcare. It's never going to work, but that's what Dems do. They have no idea what the consequence will be, and it will be horrible, health care, where you'll wait on line for weeks to even see a doctor. Raise taxes and it's still not enough and the healthcare we get is rationed. That's no good.

Look I’m not trying to be mean and I appreciate that you are trying but you really don’t know much about this topic. Sorry if I am coming off as condescending here. If you really want to take off your angry republican hat and find out the truth it’s out there. Single payer isn’t a radical idea. It’s not some experimental system. It’s already worked and working extremely well in countries all over the world.

Do you think the Canadians (plus Norway, Germany,Finland, Sweden, France etc) don’t know about our system? They had our system until the 1970’s. They are extremely aware of what we have and they will never go back to our way. They are not having a national healthcare fight for a reason and we are.

Again I am not trying to be rude and I hope if nothing else you take some time to learn about a single payer health care. Think beyond politics and really look into the system and you will think differently.

 

[superonyx]

You expect us to believe all that BS you just laid down?

No. I welcome you to do your own homework and find out for yourself.
Check my numbers and facts. It’s not hard to find.

 

[JoeKing]

Look I’m not trying to be mean and I appreciate that you are trying but you really don’t know much about this topic. Sorry if I am coming off as condescending here. If you really want to take off your angry republican hat and find out the truth it’s out there. Single payer isn’t a radical idea. It’s not some experimental system. It’s already worked and working extremely well in countries all over the world.

Do you think the Canadians (plus Norway, Germany,Finland, Sweden, France etc) don’t know about our system? They had our system until the 1970’s. They are extremely aware of what we have and they will never go back to our way. They are not having a national healthcare fight for a reason and we are.

Again I am not trying to be rude and I hope if nothing else you take some time to learn about a single payer health care. Think beyond politics and really look into the system and you will think differently.

Our VA system is single-payer and it's terrible healthcare. I would never wish that on all Americas.

 

[Tabascocat]

Thanks for the non emotional thought out response..
I am very knowledgeable and educated in single payer health care so please accept my input into the pros and cons as well.

Corporate and sales taxes are not impacted in any way by single payer. The system is entirely funded by its own payroll tax similar to social security tax we pay now. There are variation in proposals but typically the additional payroll tax for employees amounts to 2-3%. Then your employer pays a 6% payroll tax on your earnings. This happens today with SS tax. But remember you will no longer have to have health insurance premiums deducted from your pay and your employer will no longer have to pay big premiums each month for your coverage. A family policy today cost about 20k per year between you and your employer. In most cases the new tax will be less than you are paying for health insurance. There will be no pre existing conditions issues since everyone is covered regardless. You would not need to pay copays or have these deductibles like we have today.

The myth that Canadians are running across our border for medical care has been disproven many times. It’s a Corp talking point that tries to scare people away from a better system.

The wait times in Canada are only for elective procedures not necessary procedures. So if you need to wait an additional 30 days for a knee replacement it isn’t the end of the world and most would rather wait then pay the high deductible they pay under our current system.

I see but I am not convinced about not raising taxes. Every model I have seen incorporates those. That may not effect those of us who have our insurance taken out but what about those who don't pay for it now? As for the myth about Canadians, my wife witnesses that first hand. I do believe that the majority is electoral but not all. I would have to ask her for specifics.

Also, is it not true that our government would have to hire many more just to oversee this? That adds to the cost.

I am not going to lie and pretend to preach on a pedestal............we are concerned about how it affects her salary, many doctors are and the like.

 

[TheDude]

You are again using a mechanism of creating wealth as a goal when its not. The 1 and only goal of any business is to make money. The ways in which they choose to implement to achieve this goal cannot be taken as the actual goal as you have done twice now.

You are describing the is the underpants gnome strategy. Step 1- collect underpants. Step 2 - _____??______ Step 3: Profit. If the goal is only profit, there is a good chance that the business model will be a failure. Sure, everyone hopes for a profit, but if you do not provide quality or value or meet a customers need, chances are long term profits are unattainable. Limit competition, and the drive for improvement or innovation wanes.

You say a postal service is a government created monopoly? Is the public library system and the police a government created monopoly now also?

Well both libraries and the postal service were basically made obsolete by the private market - which in the long run kills monopolies as long as there is not govt subsidies. But you are making an assumption that I am an anarchist that wants no government for everything. The core tenets of government should be to provide protection of life and property that should be 1a and 1b. governments is make laws and the enforcement of laws are an important part of society.

Since everything is better (in your view) with letting the free market control and regulate itself then I assume we shouldn't have a military and should instead have private for profit companies acting as mercenaries. Lets drive down the cost of defense with capitalistic principles....nah.

asked and answered. Though the military does sub out all weaponry and infrastructure to private companies. They even employ mercs.

Our government acts to prevent monopolies not create them. There have been many examples of this over the years. (Comcast time warner merger block, Chrysler Motors bail out, Microsoft).
Without this government intervention you would have 1 company to purchase most of your goods and services. Capitalism eats itself if not regulated. This point has been written about in great detail by many Economist. Just think about it from basic understanding of capitalism. When the primary and most powerful goal of a business is to make more money eventually success after success leads to a scary reality.

This is just so anti-thetical to the real world. I honestly dont know where people pick this up. Take taxi companies. They are local created monopolies. Rude as ****, stink, dont give **** about the customer. Enter Uber, which I guess must be the epitome of evil to you. In LA, the uber driver cant pick up at the arrival gate, they force them up stairs to departures - just at the whim of the govt.

Take utilities, LADWP (and really there is not one thing the LA county or city government can do at all). Biggest methane leak in US history. You know they denied it, then reluctantly moved a few people away, then limited liability, then jacked up rates. Absolutely no choice for to go to a competitor, and this is sanctioned by compulsion. I even went solar on the house, 2 1/2 years later, the fat *** that check meters actually decided to physically check the read out versus estimating and my bill finally dropped. Of course the complaint was met with "it is our policy to estimate when it is not practical to read a meter.

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-porter-ranch-methane-20160225-story.html

Railroads were propt up by the interstate commerce Commission. ALmost all examples of monopolies can be traced to a government support, maybe with the exception of DeBeers (though I dont really care about diamonds as it is a marketing company).

Regulation typically increases barriers to entries in almost all cases and props up the monopoly.

You point to us having choices in cereal and other products as an example of how capitalism is only about choice however, non of these products have come to fruition in a pure capitalistic economy since we clearly have government regulations that have prevented pure capitalism. My belief is we wont have as many choices without regulations from the government because you would have larger companies buying out the competition and dominating the market. Our government will not allow this to happen in most cases.

point to the regulation that increased cereal brands. I pointed to regulations stymieing choice (uber, etc.). And since you are on the "large corporation" kick, tell me which large mergers have really worked out and reduced choice, worsened quality, or increased price.

Time Warner AOL? universal comcast, directv/att. Many have already spun-off because scale without enhancing a value product for the consumer just fails in larger scale. How many people are cutting the cord with cable, home phones, etc. how do they have this choice? socialism? communism?

I see you were not able to find an example of a health care system that was free market that has succeeded in the world. You put to an elective procedure niche in this country instead. That's not answering the question or challenge. Its trying to redirect the focus other places. You can certainly compare the US healthcare system to other countries in the world. The points you attempt to bring in as reasons why are not relevant or valid and with all due respect are just noise to avoid answering the question or addresses the fact that our free market health care system is failing and we have been passed by countries with single payer, government ran, or hybrid systems. The data isn't confusing and the reports are out there for all to see.

Niche or not, it is the only pure free market health care and it is the only one that continues to lower costs versus higher costs in the main systems. Just because you dont like the fact that pure market forces drive down costs and keep or improve quality isnt enough reason to discount it.

The only argument for a non-market force healthcare system is that typically when the consumer needs healthcare is when they are under duress and may not make rational decisions due to urgency or fear. That is only reason to potentially support intervention, but the intervention is by nature increasing costs. Also, defensive medicine is way more prevalent in the US. When I went to get an MRI before my back surgery, there were 25 MRI facilities within a 10 mile radius and no wait. Try that in Canada or England.

I am not completely against some form of intervention (VA, etc). But the counter argument is that people should be responsible for themselves if at all possible. I agree with some form of safety net, but I dont have much sympathy for people who make horrible choices (like smoking) and expect no accountability.

Also you cherry pick a public school system that has financial problems instead of looking at the entire country and the multiple studies that have been done on Public vs Charter education. The results are not hard to understand or something that we can't compare. Here is one for you.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...99e43c336ed_story.html?utm_term=.d6a8c621fbe8

The Scandinavian countries are not socialist countries and never have been. They are market economies with stronger social regulations to assure the giants don't eat the little guys at the expense of the citizens.

Btw...good debate. I enjoy it.

LAUSD is the largest public school district in the country, it isnt cherry picking, it is the crux of the argument. Unabated growth of govt scope and scale rarely produces value - and it almost always tramples freedoms and choice

Astrid Lindgren, from sweden, who wrote Pippy Longstocking once owed more tax than her total income. If that isnt socialism, I dont know what definition you are using.

"In 1976 a scandal arose in Sweden when it was publicised that Lindgren's marginal tax rate had risen to 102%. This was to be known as the "Pomperipossa effect" from a story she published in Expressen[15] on 3 March 1976"

Guess what happened since, they have instilled more capitalistic structures.

And you cannot compare the US really with anyone else, the scandanavians retain the natural resources publically and provide welfare states. Many were even neutral in WW2, well because that is not real important. The US has been subsidizing the military of Eurpe and Japan since and without proper compensation. We continue because it is not in our interest to let Russia encroach. While Glasnost quelled that fear to a degree, the tide has been bubbling - unless in this instance we think Russia is being a unfairly categorized.

Thanks for the discussion. would have answered earlier but had to go work for the evil corporation

 

[superonyx]

I see but I am not convinced about not raising taxes. Every model I have seen incorporates those. That may not effect those of us who have our insurance taken out but what about those who don't pay for it now? As for the myth about Canadians, my wife witnesses that first hand. I do believe that the majority is electoral but not all. I would have to ask her for specifics.

Also, is it not true that our government would have to hire many more just to oversee this? That adds to the cost.

I am not going to lie and pretend to preach on a pedestal............we are concerned about how it affects her salary, many doctors are and the like.

Thats understandable. As americans we are a different kind of greedy so I cant say for sure how it would impact her salary. What a can say is the largest group in this country fighting for single player is the nurses union. Also doctors in America are not the highest paid in the world and Canadian doctors are not starving either.
Here are stats on the top 10 countries for highest paid doctors. Most on that list use a single payer or hybrid system.

https://medicfootprints.org/10-highest-paid-countries-world-doctors/

The taxes are raising over what you pay now..But the amount you are paying isnt. Because you are paying health insurance premiums already and instead of calling it taxes they call it health insurance premiums.

Here is a some general info about wait times.
The median wait time for diagnostic services such as MRI and CAT scans[note 1] is two weeks, with 86.4% waiting less than three months.[13] The median wait time for surgery is four weeks, with 82.2% waiting less than three months.

People are not dying in the streets waiting for care in Canada. A recent survey of canadians found that almost 91% view their national healthcare system as very favorable.

Here is a quote in a article where canada is working on improving wait times. They were longer than European countries with government or single payer systems...
"So we're better than The United States," he wrote, referring to the rankings. "But should we really aim so low?

Our healthcare system is an international joke.

 

[Tabascocat]

Thats understandable. As americans we are a different kind of greedy so I cant say for sure how it would impact her salary. What a can say is the largest group in this country fighting for single player is the nurses union. Also doctors in America are not the highest paid in the world and Canadian doctors are not starving either.
Here are stats on the top 10 countries for highest paid doctors. Most on that list use a single payer or hybrid system.

https://medicfootprints.org/10-highest-paid-countries-world-doctors/

The taxes are raising over what you pay now..But the amount you are paying isnt. Because you are paying health insurance premiums already and instead of calling it taxes they call it health insurance premiums.

Here is a some general info about wait times.
The median wait time for diagnostic services such as MRI and CAT scans[note 1] is two weeks, with 86.4% waiting less than three months.[13] The median wait time for surgery is four weeks, with 82.2% waiting less than three months.

People are not dying in the streets waiting for care in Canada. A recent survey of canadians found that almost 91% view their national healthcare system as very favorable.

Here is a quote in a article where canada is working on improving wait times. They were longer than European countries with government or single payer systems...
"So we're better than The United States," he wrote, referring to the rankings. "But should we really aim so low?

Our healthcare system is an international joke.

I will have to research this more but some of those salaries scare me
Are those base and can they vary?

Honestly though, do you really think our government and insurance giants would allow this to happen? I mean they all have each others hands in various pockets . Even throw in pharmaceutical to make it more messy.

I don't know what the answer is but what we are currently using will not work. I have little faith in "our" government implementing this type of healthcare. I mean, who makes money off this?

 

[superonyx]

I will have to research this more but some of those salaries scare me
Are those base and can they vary?

Honestly though, do you really think our government and insurance giants would allow this to happen? I mean they all have each others hands in various pockets . Even throw in pharmaceutical to make it more messy.

I don't know what the answer is but what we are currently using will not work. I have little faith in "our" government implementing this type of healthcare. I mean, who makes money off this?

I don’t have any faith in our government implementing this unfortunately. At least not in the near term. I believe in the long term it is inevitable though.
The problem we have is that we don’t have a government that represents the will of the people at all.
Here is a very depressing study that shows exactly this problem. The next time you think we live in a democracy at all just remember this.

http://www.upworthy.com/20-years-of-data-reveals-that-congress-doesnt-care-what-you-think

It would take a true revolution in this country to change anything.

Most people pick a side (dem or gop) based on a social issue and then fight for that side no matter what.
Take Obama care for example. Obama took a health care plan crafted by the Republican heritage foundation and rolled out in MA as Romney Care and implemented it while removing the Public Option from it which was the only progressive cost control competition that could have made it work a little better...
Well the GOP didn’t know what to do because they feel the need to opose anything a Democratic black man with a Muslim name does...this is why they haven’t been able to come up with a replacement plan yet. Because Romney Care was their plan.

 

[Tabascocat]

I don’t have any faith in our government implementing this unfortunately. At least not in the near term. I believe in the long term it is inevitable though.
The problem we have is that we don’t have a government that represents the will of the people at all.
Here is a very depressing study that shows exactly this problem. The next time you think we live in a democracy at all just remember this.

http://www.upworthy.com/20-years-of-data-reveals-that-congress-doesnt-care-what-you-think

It would take a true revolution in this country to change anything.

Most people pick a side (dem or gop) based on a social issue and then fight for that side no matter what.
Take Obama care for example. Obama took a health care plan crafted by the Republican heritage foundation and rolled out in MA as Romney Care and implemented it while removing the Public Option from it which was the only progressive cost control competition that could have made it work a little better...
Well the GOP didn’t know what to do because they feel the need to opose anything a Democratic black man with a Muslim name does...this is why they haven’t been able to come up with a replacement plan yet. Because Romney Care was their plan.

Yup, Congress and the lobbyists are the real crooks in all of this. I always knew that

That is one of the main reasons that I am in favor of "Drain the Swamp". Too bad that won't get done either