Why bust on Barber?

[gimmesix]

Or we missed him being below 4 YPC when we are ahead?

I should have addressed this one as well. Do you not get why he would average less than 4 yards per carry when we're ahead? Perhaps it's because teams are loading the box on defense to stop the run when we're trying to run out the clock.

His 4.4 average is a compilation of all those things: his big runs, his short-yardage runs, his runs late in the game, tough sledding against good run defenses, easy running against bad ones ... just as with any starting running back, some of which have short-yardage backs to relieve them rather than having their average hurt by those runs.

 

[superonyx]

I agree that people on message board seem to pick their favorite players and bash the others in his position.

On Barber.... I think the excitement of Felix makes it seem a bit boring when Barber gets back in the game. You know with Barber that he wont break the monster run. And I find myself thinking about "what would Felix have done", on some of Barbers runs. I dont see him making many runs these days that Felix or Choice couldnt have made.

On Felix.... I love his potential. I have some fears about his durability. I also have some thoughts on how he would do as the feature back. But i also think he is the hardest talent to replace in the draft or free agency. I am glad we have him and am very interested in watching how his career develops.

On Choice.... I dont get to see him enough to form a very strong opinion. When he is in the game he seems to be capable. I dont think he has the big play ability of Felix. But i also dont see him as a feature back either. He seems to be ok at most things but i dont know that he is special at any of them.

Overall we are lucky to have the 3 weapons we have at RB. I think with the way our offense is designed we would be alright with any of them. If I were to pick a player to feature as the back who gets most of the carries i would have to go with Felix. I love what he shows in big play ability and vision.

But the original poster makes a good point about people feeling the need to hate a player. I think for some people on message boards it gives them an identity. I try to remind myself of this when i am arguing with some people about certain issues.

 

[gimmesix]

Felix Jones and T-Choice are better fits for the Cowboys offense.

Why would that be the case?

 

[Cover 2]

Then you should be "busting" on the coaching staff no?

Believe me, I "bust" on the OC plenty

I don't disagree on Barber having a specific role on this team, but I would have to argue with him being our "least effective back." He scored seven touchdowns for us. Do we know that Choice or Jones could have scored in those situations? Effectiveness is not just measured by average per carry.

We don't. Just like we didn't know how Miles would do filling in for Roy (which was great), or how Hambrick would do taking over for Emmitt (not great). The only way to know is to play them in those situations.

Also I felt Barber became more ineffectual as the year went on. I'm not sure his body can handle his running style in a full-time capacity. He had a nice burst early in the year, and lost it as the year went on. This is why I think he needs to be a starter, so he can stay relatively fresh year-round.

 

[gimmesix]

I'm not sure his body can handle his running style in a full-time capacity. He had a nice burst early in the year, and lost it as the year went on. This is why I think he needs to be a starter, so he can stay relatively fresh year-round.

I think Felix showed that he deserves to get more of the carries, which would allow Barber to be at his Barbarian best in a secondary role. Nothing wrong with that at all.

The hard thing is figuring out how to work Choice into the mix, and I know that's where fans get frustrated. It just seems to make some forget what Barber brings to this team.

I do think Barber went through a fairly bad stretch while hurt (bad in that he average under 4 yards per carry), but then he turned around and averaged 6.5 per carry in the crucial victory over Philadelphia to end the regular season.

 

[Cover 2]

I think Felix showed that he deserves to get more of the carries, which would allow Barber to be at his Barbarian best in a secondary role. Nothing wrong with that at all.

The hard thing is figuring out how to work Choice into the mix, and I know that's where fans get frustrated. It just seems to make some forget what Barber brings to this team.

That's one thing I'm worried about too. I just hope Choice doesn't get fed up with his lack of playing time and eventually leave in free agency. If I had to choose who I wanted on my team between Choice and Barber I'd go with Choice. He's younger and got less miles on him. Plus at this point in their careers I think he's the better player.

 

[Frosty]

What about 4.4 yards per carry as a starter makes paying Barber a stupid mistake? How high do we set the bar in Dallas?

I can't understand why so many dismiss a very good year overall by a starting running back because he was injured in the playoffs or failed on some high-profile short-yardage plays.

Are we so sure those fresh legs can replace what Barber gives us? Be careful what you wish for.

4.4 looks good on paper, but if you are not on the field playing, because you cant stay healthy it means nothin.....MB3 was best at his orignal role,(redzone) he has taken a beaten as a starter and its taken its toll....I Like MB3 but I'll trade him while you can get something out of him...Choice and Felix can make the same stats for less money and extra draft picks....MB3 has made himself expendable...mostly due to health issues....somebody has to go... maintaining 3 good RBs long term is just not feasable....

 

[cowfan]

Marion and Felix are the two best backs. Both need to stay healthy. I think the Cowboys need to call more plays that goes with Barbers strength. Tossing the ball to him on the outside is a call for lost yardage. Barber doesn't have the speed. I also believe the Cowboys should get out of the shotgun and let Barber loose. Choice is a good third back, but he's tradeable.

 

[Dave_in-NC]

4.4 looks good on paper, but if you are not on the field playing, because you cant stay healthy it means nothin.....MB3 was best at his orignal role,(redzone) he has taken a beaten as a starter and its taken its toll....I Like MB3 but I'll trade him while you can get something out of him...Choice and Felix can make the same stats for less money and extra draft picks....MB3 has made himself expendable...mostly due to health issues....somebody has to go... maintaining 3 good RBs long term is just not feasable....

I'll never understand what fans are thinking when they make these types of statements.
If you, (the average fan) thinks he needs a reduced role because he can't do any thing else, what would we get for him from GMs or coaches who know better?

Barber was injured most of the season. If Roy Williams deserves more time to jell, Barber certainly deserves time to heal.

 

[Picksix]

4.4 looks good on paper, but if you are not on the field playing, because you cant stay healthy it means nothin.....MB3 was best at his orignal role,(redzone) he has taken a beaten as a starter and its taken its toll....I Like MB3 but I'll trade him while you can get something out of him...Choice and Felix can make the same stats for less money and extra draft picks....MB3 has made himself expendable...mostly due to health issues....somebody has to go... maintaining 3 good RBs long term is just not feasable....

So what could the Cowboys realistically get in a trade for a situational RB who doesn't have blazing speed, can't stay healthy, and has a big contract?

 

[gimmesix]

Choice and Felix can make the same stats for less money and extra draft picks.

Or so you believe. I like Choice, but I'm not giving him a free pass to being a successful starter. There is quite a bit of difference in his role and even stepping in as a starter than being the guy or even part of the one-two punch for a season.

Maybe Choice can do it — he's certainly done some good things in his limited role — but Barber's 4.4 as a starter is nothing to take for granted.

Of backs with as many (or more) carries as Barber had, only eight had a higher average per carry. (That's out of 21 backs for the sake of perspective.)

 

[Eskimo]

Felix has a special talent for breaking off gigantic runs - but he isn't all feast or famine. He demonstrates better vision for between the tackles running than Barber does. It is not just Felix's talent rushing that we can exploit but the threat of him running is a much bigger threat than Barber and opens things up for everybody.

Barber is still an okay player but he looked like a shell of his former self much of the year. His balance just doesn't look very good out there these days and he is very indecisive when running the ball and requires a large hole to be opened to have any success at this point. He wasn't slow when he first came in the league but he wasn't slow either - he just looks slow out there now whenever he hits the open field. Finally there is the thing that you hardly ever see out of him anymore - that is running with power in the second level.

Choice is kind of the jack of all trades but master of none. He is a valuable player and may even be the best of the bunch in some ways - blocking and vision. He is also probably the best of the three runners right now in short yardage because he can squeeze into tight holes, jump over the pile or bounce it to the outside with equal efficacy.

It is as others have said the carries distribution that has got people irritated. I am not sure Garrett and Barber can co-exist on the same football team with another candidate for the top RB spot. Garrett wants Barber to have the vast majority of carries and snaps whereas I and many other posters (and probably Jerry Jones) think the offense is better with Felix in there. If Garrett could curtail his use of Barber to about 10 carries a game mostly focused to the second half, short-yardage and mop-up duty then I have no real issue with Barber being here. He can still be a useful part of the team.

However, on a cost efficiency basis, it is hard to argue about a duo of Felix and Choice. If there is no salary cap, there is no issue. If the salary cap comes back, Barber is the first one who should go because you no longer get much bang for the buck from him playing a backup/complementary sort of role.

 

[CF74]

The thing with Barber is that he is being over used and abused, but that comes with starter money. They are gonna ruin this kid imo. He needs to be forced to sit when hurt and forced to sit when he's clearly been banging to much in one game. I say forced because he has to much heart to sit down willingly.

Instead they pound the heck out of the kid until he becomes ineffective. If you have three good horses in the stable, maybe it would be wise to alternate them ever other 2-3 games or at least when you see one wearing down dramatically.

It was very evident when he went down the 1st time that it was time to force him back into the stable but no, "I can play coach." Sometimes you just gotta think longevity instead of right now. We play 16 game schedules and if you wanna go deep into the postseason you can't go in there with beat down starters. This is more on the coaches than anybody else and I'm not so sure some of this pressure to get every penny out of this kid isn't coming from Jerry also...

 

[Eskimo]

The thing with Barber is that he is being over used and abused, but that comes with starter money. They are gonna ruin this kid imo. He needs to be forced to sit when hurt and forced to sit when he's clearly been banging to much in one game. I say forced because he has to much heart to sit down willingly.

Instead they pound the heck out of the kid until he becomes ineffective. If you have three good horses in the stable, maybe it would be wise to alternate them ever other 2-3 games or at least when you see one wearing down dramatically.

It was very evident when he went down the 1st time that it was time to force him back into the stable but no, "I can play coach." Sometimes you just gotta think longevity instead of right now. We play 16 game schedules and if you wanna go deep into the postseason you can't go in there with beat down starters. This is more on the coaches than anybody else and I'm not so sure some of this pressure to get every penny out of this kid isn't coming from Jerry also...

The thing is the decision not to overplay him had to be made prior to the 2008 season. It may already be too late to limit him to being a complementary role. He may have already been overabused to the point of never regaining his burst. It lasted all of two games this year and never came back.

If Garrett was not going to play Felix or Choice much in 2008 because they were too green to play in his system as rookies, he should have told Jerry to get him a vet for split some carries with Barber for half of the year.

I still think the biggest mistake was Jerry giving into those contract demands after Michael Turner got that big deal. Barber was still a RFA and Jerry should have forced his hand into signing the one-year tender. After failing as a lead back, Barber could have been signed to a more reasonable complementary type back contract of $4M/year of so and continued to be a valuable member of the team. Jerry also should have have had the wisdom to bring in the vet needed to split the carries with Barber in the early going on his own. If he is going to want some of the props when he makes good decisions as the GM then he has to take the blame here. He needed to get those tools for Garrett so they were available when Garrett needed them.

 

[gimmesix]

Instead they pound the heck out of the kid until he becomes ineffective. If you have three good horses in the stable, maybe it would be wise to alternate them ever other 2-3 games or at least when you see one wearing down dramatically.

That actually wouldn't be a bad idea. Go with Felix and Choice for one game; Barber and Felix for another. (Not sure it's ever a good idea to go without Felix, though) If one proves to be ineffective after a few carries, turn to the other.

Promote it as staying healthy throughout the season, and the backs might even begrudgingly accept it.

 

[CF74]

The thing is the decision not to overplay him had to be made prior to the 2008 season. It may already be too late to limit him to being a complementary role. He may have already been overabused to the point of never regaining his burst. It lasted all of two games this year and never came back.

If Garrett was not going to play Felix or Choice much in 2008 because they were too green to play in his system as rookies, he should have told Jerry to get him a vet for split some carries with Barber for half of the year.

I still think the biggest mistake was Jerry giving into those contract demands after Michael Turner got that big deal. Barber was still a RFA and Jerry should have forced his hand into signing the one-year tender. After failing as a lead back, Barber could have been signed to a more reasonable complementary type back contract of $4M/year of so and continued to be a valuable member of the team. Jerry also should have have had the wisdom to bring in the vet needed to split the carries with Barber in the early going on his own. If he is going to want some of the props when he makes good decisions as the GM then he has to take the blame here. He needed to get those tools for Garrett so they were available when Garrett needed them.

I dunno, that quad injury to me was a fluke. The damage came after when he continued to play once he was hurt. I'm sure we will see the old Barber after a full off season to recoup. Everything else you mentioned is pure hindsight now. Barber can still be effective if he's not over used again...

 

[CF74]

That actually wouldn't be a bad idea. Go with Felix and Choice for one game; Barber and Felix for another. (Not sure it's ever a good idea to go without Felix, though) If one proves to be ineffective after a few carries, turn to the other.

Promote it as staying healthy throughout the season, and the backs might even begrudgingly accept it.

We could learn a thing or two how defenses rotate their players nowadays. If I had to cross a desert I'd take at least two horses and a mule, heck I'd even try to get a few camels...:mule: :moose:

 

[gimmesix]

We could learn a thing or two how defenses rotate their players nowadays. If I had to cross a desert I'd take at least two horses and a mule, heck I'd even try to get a few camels...:mule: :moose:

I do think it's harder than people think to get three running backs in a game and adequately share the carries, because any plans of that sort change as the game develops. However, going in with a plan to primarily use two of the backs, then switching it up for the next game would be easier to accomplish.

Dallas could do it from the standpoint, too, of which two backs the coaches feel would be most effective against the defenses they're facing.

 

[Eskimo]

I dunno, that quad injury to me was a fluke. The damage came after when he continued to play once he was hurt. I'm sure we will see the old Barber after a full off season to recoup. Everything else you mentioned is pure hindsight now. Barber can still be effective if he's not over used again...

That, of course, remains to be seen.

It's always hard to call a trend when it is just starting to show itself. I'm wary of RBs who start to get nicked up a lot. The most punishing position on the football field is probably a between the tackles RB who gets blasted by several players almost every time he touches the ball, usually totally unable to protect himself with his arms.

We can use a healthy Barber for the next couple of years for 10 or so hard carries a game. His contract doesn't get super bad in terms of salary for two more years. I can't see Barber lasting much longer than that. He certainly won't be brought back for those $7M/yr type years.

 

[UnoDallas]

because he can't do any of this any more

[youtube]Eggbw29CpuY[/youtube]

prove me MBIII