Why Can't fans accept the facts about Spencer?

[CATCH17]

Guys move along. Accept the average. Nothing to see here.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

3-4 ends are not huge pass rushers, but good ones still get clean up sacks because guys like Ware(and Spencer) are the ones the offense is focused on blocking.

Pittsburgh doesn't have a Cullen Jenkins type of player at DE, but their ends clean up on some sacks every year. Canty was good for 2 or 3 a year when he was here and he's not even a very good rusher.

That's it right there.

I'm not suggesting a 3-4 DE is going to get 10 sacks a year... Heck 5 is a great number, but if the DE's on this team doubled their production to 7 sacks per year total (and let's be realistic here, 7 sacks for all the defensive ends combined isn't a "pie-in-the-sky" number") don't you think the number of sacks for Ware, Ratliff and Spencer wouldn't increase also? Canty had some pass rush ability. Igor and Spears? None. No pressures. No sacks.

 

[InmanRoshi]

Spears and Igor are taken out of all obvious passing down and long yardage situations in the nickel and dime packages, approx 40% of defensive snaps and where most sacks occur, while Spencer gets to pin his ears back in a 4 man line and solely rush the passer. It's a bit like asking why your 3rd blocking TE for goalline packages doesn't have any long sideline route TD catches.

No question 5 sacks (2 against the Eagle scrubs in the final game of the season) is pretty much a disgrace given the endless opportunities Spencer has, as is averaging 4 sacks a season for a 1st round draft pick drafted solely for the purpose of providing another pass rush threat opposite Ware.

He's Eb Ekuban in a 2 point stance.

 

[InmanRoshi]

Some fans expected Spencer to play all the time like he did the end of '09, and they're disappointed that he didn't. (That probably wasn't realistic anyway.) Then a certain segment of fans grade him down because they associate him with Wade. You can usually tell them because they act like Bradie and Spears are great underappreciated players but Spencer is garbage, when at worst they're all about the same.

Really, Jenkins lost us more games than Spencer did, but few call for him to be outright dumped. They think of him as a talented player that had a really bad year and can still be salvaged. Spencer is in the same boat.

You don't ditch a guy like him. He showed that he could really play a couple years ago. A Rob Ryan will think they can get that '09 performance out of him again.

And some people defend him simply because he was a Wade guy.

But I agree with the sentiment he's about the same as Spears and Bradie ... both of whom are two down players, or ideally should be two down players. That's also what Spencer should be, and taken off the field in nickel situations, because he's a liability as a pass rusher.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Spears and Igor are taken out of all obvious passing down and long yardage situations in the nickel and dime packages, approx 40% of defensive snaps and where most sacks occur, while Spencer gets to pin his ears back in a 4 man line and solely rush the passer. It's a bit like asking why your 3rd blocking TE doesn't have any

No question 5 sacks (2 against the Eagle scrubs in the final game of the season) is pretty much a disgrace given the endless opportunities Spencer has, as is averaging 4 sacks a season for a 1st round draft pick drafted solely for the purpose of providing another pass rush threat opposite Ware.

He's Eb Ekuban in a 2 point stance.

And there are guys who are worse than Ekuban playing in front of him.

 

[30yrheel]

with all the great players we have on defense (according to many cz experts) you'd think they could stop somebody this year.

 

[Chuck 54]

Again, it's not about sacks...D Ware's numbers were down this year by 20 tackles and five sacks from two years ago, despite getting 3 in the final game against backups...but we know he's good.

Our DE's and NT need to push the pocket back...Ratliff gets no push at all...he either beats a guy with his quickness, or he gets blocked and stoned...he gets rolled out of there on double teams. I'm not bashing him, but he is a small NT who gives everything he's got.

You put Ratliff out at DE and bring in a powerful NT who can push the pocket, and you'll see the QB in more trouble, rushing more passes, getting hit more often, and getting nailed by Ware and Spencer more often because he can't step up every play. Our front 3 are not very good...if they were powerful enough to push the pocket, no one would care about their sacks. But the truth is that they give us absolutely nothing, so we have to replace them with backups like Hatcher and Bowen who also can't push the pocket, but who have more quickness and passrush ability to supposedly get by a guy now and then....it didn't happen much this year.

I don't think you want quicker, pass rush specialists who aren't that good at DE, guys like Hatcher and Bowen...I think you want those big, athletic, powerful men at DE who can lay their ears back and ram and push an OG/C back back back so the QB has more to worry about than only if Ware beat his man on the speed rush.

 

[Baileyneverfailey]

Rob Ryan coming in here will provide better evidence than anything we've seen, because he has no loyalty to Spencer, unlike Wade did. If Vic Butler is starting by the opener next season, then I guess we'll know how Spencer is doing.

I personally think Butler has shown enough to deserve an open competition for that job. Not only is he relentless rushing, but we all saw him make some nice reads on screen plays as well.

 

[Chuck 54]

Rob Ryan coming in here will provide better evidence than anything we've seen, because he has no loyalty to Spencer, unlike Wade did. If Vic Butler is starting by the opener next season, then I guess we'll know how Spencer is doing.

I personally think Butler has shown enough to deserve an open competition for that job. Not only is he relentless rushing, but we all saw him make some nice reads on screen plays as well.

I have no problem with that...I think Butler has been crazy good when turned loose for the past two seasons. I'd love to see him starting, but he's not very big, and I'm guessing he hasn't moved ahead of spencer due to some liabilities in the Run or coverage games maybe...just a guess. Maybe the previous coaches didn't want to run him in and let the offense know ahead of time that he was going to be the 5th guy rushing.

I'd certainly like to see him used more in a rotation at least.

I'm not a defender of Spencers or a fan...I just think he's already close to being an average contributor opposite a pass rushing star.

Someone mentioned Carl Banks, who played opposite LT, and was considered a pretty good OLB on his own...Carl Banks averaged just over 3 sacks a year for his entire 12 season career, and that's a little inflated because he had one 9 sack season. LT was the pass rusher...Banks was the traditional LB who rushed now and then, but played more in coverage.

Sacks/year: 1, 1.5, 1, 4, 4, 1, 4, 1.5, 9, 6.5, 3, 3

Again, that's not to say Spencer doesn't need to improve or produce more pressure and hits, or even sacks, when he gets to pass rush...just providing the facts that may be hazy in some people's memories of big name players.

 

[SSGMIKE]

I agree.... but this goes for Ware also.....

How many times did I see Spencer run himself out of position and the opposition gash Dallas on the run this year? Way too often. After second half of 09 I thought he was the most dominant player on Defense, the guy completely regressed last year.

 

[Cowboyslife]

and on the flip side it's him saying the exact opposite of

"OMG he suckz, no double digitz in the sack statz, hes outof position all the timez. Hes stright trash"

Far more complementary then anyone here is willing to give him credit for and basically addresses many of the complaints at the same time as his strongest attributes

There's one thing about not averaging double digit sacks, but Spencer has yet to average half of double digit sacks.

 

[Baileyneverfailey]

I have no problem with that...I think Butler has been crazy good when turned loose for the past two seasons. I'd love to see him starting, but he's not very big, and I'm guessing he hasn't moved ahead of spencer due to some liabilities in the Run or coverage games maybe...just a guess. Maybe the previous coaches didn't want to run him in and let the offense know ahead of time that he was going to be the 5th guy rushing.

I'd certainly like to see him used more in a rotation at least.

I'm not a defender of Spencers or a fan...I just think he's already close to being an average contributor opposite a pass rushing star.

Someone mentioned Carl Banks, who played opposite LT, and was considered a pretty good OLB on his own...Carl Banks averaged just over 3 sacks a year for his entire 12 season career, and that's a little inflated because he had one 9 sack season. LT was the pass rusher...Banks was the traditional LB who rushed now and then, but played more in coverage.

Sacks/year: 1, 1.5, 1, 4, 4, 1, 4, 1.5, 9, 6.5, 3, 3

Again, that's not to say Spencer doesn't need to improve or produce more pressure and hits, or even sacks, when he gets to pass rush...just providing the facts that may be hazy in some people's memories of big name players.

There's no doubt it's wishful thinking to want 2 OLBs who will be in double digit sacks every year. I think Pittsburgh probably has the best tandem of OLBs when taken as a pair, but you don't get a lot of teams with 2 double digit sack guys.

I still think Butler is going to take Spencer's job next year. Of course, maybe Ryan will get Spencer pumped and put into position to make plays and it won't happen. I think the only reason Butler didn't take his job this year is that he wasn't quite ready, but that part of it was also that Wade was just loyal to guys who had been entrenched as starters, just like Brooking.

 

[TNCowboy]

Spears and Igor are taken out of all obvious passing down and long yardage situations in the nickel and dime packages, approx 40% of defensive snaps and where most sacks occur, while Spencer gets to pin his ears back in a 4 man line and solely rush the passer. It's a bit like asking why your 3rd blocking TE for goalline packages doesn't have any long sideline route TD catches.

No question 5 sacks (2 against the Eagle scrubs in the final game of the season) is pretty much a disgrace given the endless opportunities Spencer has, as is averaging 4 sacks a season for a 1st round draft pick drafted solely for the purpose of providing another pass rush threat opposite Ware.

He's Eb Ekuban in a 2 point stance.

/thread....

 

[natedoug]

Ware, Spencer and Butler will all be in play BIG Time next season in passing situations. Get all (3) on the field with Butler bringing the HEAT in an A gap blitz or run him in a "game" around the end with Ratliff.

 

[Nirvana]

I'm all for drafting Quinn to improve the pass rush. Spencer had some injury issues this year, and in a contract year with an aggressive DC I have high hopes he'll have a 10+ sack year. Ryan got an early start in coaching OLBs with being OLB coach for Ohio State in '88, has 2 rings from coaching LBers with the Patriots, has made Pro Bowlers (Willie McGinnest), etc. Heck Spencer may just need an injection of swagger and attitude from Ryan to be a Pro Bowler himself.

 

[Deep_Freeze]

I'm all for drafting Quinn to improve the pass rush. Spencer had some injury issues this year, and in a contract year with an aggressive DC I have high hopes he'll have a 10+ sack year. Ryan got an early start in coaching OLBs with being OLB coach for Ohio State in '88, has 2 rings from coaching LBers with the Patriots, has made Pro Bowlers (Willie McGinnest), etc. Heck Spencer may just need an injection of swagger and attitude from Ryan to be a Pro Bowler himself.

Well I just don't see how Quinn will even be there at #9, but I guess we can hope. Just like we can hope Spencer will turn it around.

3 sacks in 15 games is just pathetic for an OLB in a 3-4, and no excuses can be made for it. Even Ellis on his last leg did better than that and we used to be on his case about a lack of ability to get to the QB. Now we have someone even worse and we still make excuses.

Just cause your a fan of the Cowboys doesn't mean you have to defend every player cause they wear the star. Sometimes they just aren't good and we need to recognize that before they are cut or traded when everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon and say how much that player sucked.

 

[ShiningStar]

Blah blah blah....post after post about Spencer being a huge disappointment because he didn't get a bunch of sacks.

Could Spencer do more with his opportunities? yes

Should fans expect him to get more than 6-7 sacks per season? Probably not.

It's not like DWare and Spencer are both playing DE in the 4-3. They are OLBs, and only one of them rushes the passer 95% of the time; that's Ware. We all recognize that Ware is one of the great pass rushers in the NFL, and he had to get 3 sacks in the final game of the season to get to 15 sacks, still less than one sack per game average.

But for some reason fans think Spencer should have 10-12 sacks in far fewer opportunities.

From the 3-4, the standard pass rush comes from Ware and the front D-linemen. Spencer has other responsibilities...he's only coming on the pass rush when we bring 5 (and that's when the 5th guy isn't an ILB, CB, or S)...or when we try to surprise the other team by dropping Ware into coverage.

Spencer had a pretty good year for what he's asked to do. Is it fair to continue to expect him to improve? yes. Is it fair to want him to win more 1-1 battles when he does get turned loose in the pass rush? Of course, just as we should expect more wins in the 1-1 battles with our 3 DLmen.

But let's keep in mind that Spencer is not rushing the QB even half the plays that Ware is rushing the QB. You just cannot live rushing 5 guys most of the time.

I hope Spencer gets better, but fans need to stop thinking of Spencer as one half of a bookend DE pair...he's not. How many can even name the OLB who plays opposite Clay Matthews or list his sack totals compared to Spencer's?

DOesnt matter what we think now, hes Robs boy and hopefully its Robs decision on waht to do with him. If he can make a man out of him, great, if not and he lets Spencer walk, fine too.

Bottom line, SPencer needed to do more and not just sacks, and he couldnt. Dont know, dont care, dont need to now, hes with a new DC and that guys opinion should matter at this point.