Why Saying "Cutting Carter Was a Blunder" is Absurd

[Waffle]

1. They cut a hard working, yet unpopular young QB who was headed into 4th season as starter and happened to play on a team that went 5-1 in their first six games, yet his play declined the rest of the season as he "led the team" to a 5-6 finish down the stretch when it really mattered. Player had upside only because of age even though his stats are virtually IDENTICAL to Vinny's. Yes, Vinny is obviously on the downside of career.

2. Players weren't concerned that Carter was dumped like that, VT was GIVEN the job because Romo and Henson weren't ready. Sugar may have mentioned the team was not onboard with this move, but do we really know that to be an absolute truth? (No offense BSugar )

3. While it forced Dallas to play the entire season with a 41 year old QB, Vinny was brought in to COMPETE with Quincy, not back him up. In addition, nobody forced or mandated Quincy to violate the league's substance abuse policy mulitple times.

4. Just because someone speculated that the team offered Carter a contract after he was cut doesn't make it true.

5. JJ cut a player who was one bad night away from a 4 game suspension. While Carter seems to be a model player in New York, getting cut could have been a necessary wake up call for him. While a 98 Qb rating at NY may look good on the surface, his poor clock management skills at the end of the Baltimore contest cost them the game.

(READ THIS NORS) The next week, he was only able to put up 116 yards and lead the team to a measly 10 points at lowly Cleveland, who gave up over 250 yards passing and 4 TDs to psuedo-rookie Carson Palmer and the Bengals just the week before. Quincy barely completed 50% of his passes against Cleveland (going 11/20), and he only threw for a pathetic 133 yards in his start against the Cardinals. In Quincy's two starts, the Jets only scored a TOTAL of 23 points, but won on the back of a good defense. (That sounds familiar)


6) Was this cut was a JJ slap at Parcells? Don't think so since Parcells makes all the moves. Now, if you write for profootball talk.com, you could make up a unsubstantiated story implying that Parcells embarrassed Jerry by going with Carter over Hutch in 2003 and so Jerry cut Carter.

7) What was the risk in keeping Carter? Well, most teams don't keep 4 QBs on the roster. He fails a “test” you are back to only TWO QBs.

Look...the guy came to the Cowboys as a 2nd Round reach with Jerry Jones slobbering all over him. And the guy couldn't even throw a spiral. Wade Wilson basically had to re-teach him how to throw from scratch. He still threw his share of "ducks" even after working on his technique. He started as a rookie until injured, and then he played his way to the bench in 2002. He played ALL of 2003 and didn't improve as we collapsed to a 5-6 record to end the season. His stats are virtually exact to Vinny's.

Ask yourself this question. Was Quincy Carter a QB who's play even resembled Troy Aikman's or made you think he could be as good? How about Danny White?

It's laughable how some people have lowered their standards and expectations so much at QB since Aikman left.

 

[JDSmith]

One minor correction, Quincy's clock management skills had nothing to do with the loss. It was Herm Edwards' clock management skills that cost them the game, and it wasn't the first time. In the local media it's well known that Herm Edwards and crew are absolutely brutal at clock management in the end of games, and it's cost them victories when Quincy wasn't even on the team. Herm screwed it up, plain and simple.

 

[Waffle]

One minor correction, Quincy's clock management skills had nothing to do with the loss. It was Herm Edwards' clock management skills that cost them the game, and it wasn't the first time. In the local media it's well known that Herm Edwards and crew are absolutely brutal at clock management in the end of games, and it's cost them victories when Quincy wasn't even on the team. Herm screwed it up, plain and simple.

I agree with you about the coaching staff. I just think a veteran guy like Quincy who has had experience in these situations should have been more decisive. I blame the whole bunch.

 

[Jimz31]

1. They cut a hard working, yet unpopular young QB who was headed into 4th season as starter and happened to play on a team that went 5-1 in their first six games, yet his play declined the rest of the season as he "led the team" to a 5-6 finish down the stretch when it really mattered. Player had upside only because of age even though his stats are virtually IDENTICAL to Vinny's. Yes, Vinny is obviously on the downside of career.

And here we have a veteran that is doing the exact same thing.....I though you could expect more out of veterans than young QB's.....I guess I was wrong.

2. Players weren't concerned that Carter was dumped like that, VT was GIVEN the job because Romo and Henson weren't ready. Sugar may have mentioned the team was not onboard with this move, but do we really know that to be an absolute truth? (No offense BSugar )

If one of your friends were cut....no matter WHO it was, would you not be upset? You act like the players aren't friends, but just business acquaintences. I was at the Jacksonville/Dallas game when Hutch was starting....I look over to the sidelines and I see QUITE A FEW players over talking to QC the entire game....Woodson included. Yes, players do become friends and when someone is cut unexpectantly, players DO wonder and some DO get upset.

3. While it forced Dallas to play the entire season with a 41 year old QB, Vinny was brought in to COMPETE with Quincy, not back him up. In addition, nobody forced or mandated Quincy to violate the league's substance abuse policy mulitple times.

You like to question BS's statement, yet nowhere have the Cowboys said that it was substance abuse. Did he do it? Probably. Did the Cowboys or QC come out and say that is what it was? Not once. Just becuase it's reported doesn't make it true...remember?

4. Just because someone speculated that the team offered Carter a contract after he was cut doesn't make it true.

No, Irvin would have absolutely NO WAY of knowing this right? BTW, just becuase it is speculated by a person that has connections to the team does not make it UNTRUE.

5. JJ cut a player who was one bad night away from a 4 game suspension. While Carter seems to be a model player in New York, getting cut could have been a necessary wake up call for him. While a 98 Qb rating at NY may look good on the surface, his poor clock management skills at the end of the Baltimore contest cost them the game.

He was one bad night away from a 4-game PAYCHECK forfeiture....NOT suspension. At least that is what is REPORTED....not to mention clock management is also a COACHING responsibility. Look at Washington THIS year versus last year, with the SAME QB, now.

(READ THIS NORS) The next week, he was only able to put up 116 yards and lead the team to a measly 10 points at lowly Cleveland, who gave up over 250 yards passing and 4 TDs to psuedo-rookie Carson Palmer and the Bengals just the week before. Quincy barely completed 50% of his passes against Cleveland (going 11/20), and he only threw for a pathetic 133 yards in his start against the Cardinals. In Quincy's two starts, the Jets only scored a TOTAL of 23 points, but won on the back of a good defense. (That sounds familiar)

Dilfer went 4 or 5 straight games without throwing for over 100 yards....and his team won the superbowl.....and he's also a QB that some on here want.

6) Was this cut was a JJ slap at Parcells? Don't think so since Parcells makes all the moves. Now, if you write for profootball talk.com, you could make up a unsubstantiated story implying that Parcells embarrassed Jerry by going with Carter over Hutch in 2003 and so Jerry cut Carter.

Tell me that JJ wasn't looking for ANY opportunity to get rid of QC. Alot of people here predicted it before the TC even got underway that JJ would find a way to cut him.

7) What was the risk in keeping Carter? Well, most teams don't keep 4 QBs on the roster. He fails a “test” you are back to only TWO QBs.

Again, if he failed a test....reportedly, it would have only been a 4-game pay check forfeiture....not 4 game suspension.

Look...the guy came to the Cowboys as a 2nd Round reach with Jerry Jones slobbering all over him. And the guy couldn't even throw a spiral. Wade Wilson basically had to re-teach him how to throw from scratch. He still threw his share of "ducks" even after working on his technique. He started as a rookie until injured, and then he played his way to the bench in 2002. He played ALL of 2003 and didn't improve as we collapsed to a 5-6 record to end the season. His stats are virtually exact to Vinny's.

Ask yourself this question. Was Quincy Carter a QB who's play even resembled Troy Aikman's or made you think he could be as good? How about Danny White?

It's laughable how some people have lowered their standards and expectations so much at QB since Aikman left.

Let me get this straight.....his stats are virtually exact to a 17-18 year vet? Wow....that's pretty good for a young QB to already be on par with veteran. (Tongue-in-cheek.)

People here would have been ready to cut Favre early in his career with his lack of mechanics and INT throwing. If you don't believe me, I know PLENTY of Packer fans who wanted him cut when he first played with the packers.

I seem to remember that everything was QC's fault last year....we got rid of him, so why not 16-0?

 

[jsond]

good post.

yup we gave up so much yet Q is BARELY a #2 QB in this league. Last I checked nobody wanted him til the Jets had a few injuries at the QB position. Just like all the posts about how losing Derek Ross and Jamar Martin was significant yet they aren't on an NFL roster at this point. Ross has been given at least 2-3 teams and still is out of work and Martin was never picked up (which i know some say shows how much these other teams can't figure out how to utilize him ,lol) Either way w/ all of our problems I still find it funny that so many pinpoint the loss of players who have done nothing (and havent shown that they every will) w/ any other team as the root of our problems.

 

[Jimz31]

good post.

yup we gave up so much yet Q is BARELY a #2 QB in this league. Last I checked nobody wanted him til the Jets had a few injuries at the QB position. Just like all the posts about how losing Derek Ross and Jamar Martin was significant yet they aren't on an NFL roster at this point. Ross has been given at least 2-3 teams and still is out of work and Martin was never picked up (which i know some say shows how much these other teams can't figure out how to utilize him ,lol) Either way w/ all of our problems I still find it funny that so many pinpoint the loss of players who have done nothing (and havent shown that they every will) w/ any other team as the root of our problems.

Actually, Ross is playing with the Vikings and actually played last week. In fact, I think he started. J-Mart is playing with the Dolphins.

 

[Mash]

Geezzz.....I have the " The Story of the 2003 Dallas Cowboys.....The Boys are Back DVD" ( Christmas Present.....couldn't get the History of the Dallas Cowboys DVD )

and.....Carter never once threw a duck.....actually he looked great...

BTW...alot of QB's have to make a adjustments to the NFL ball.....

Manning even had trouble and changed his gripe the first year he was in the NFL.

 

[Waffle]

And here we have a veteran that is doing the exact same thing.....I though you could expect more out of veterans than young QB's.....I guess I was wrong.

I expect MUCH more from the QB position than what either Vinny OR Carter have thrown out there. You should too.

(And last time I checked, Quincy is a veteran too. I mean come on...the guy's been in the league FOUR years now.)

If one of your friends were cut....no matter WHO it was, would you not be upset? You act like the players aren't friends, but just business acquaintences. I was at the Jacksonville/Dallas game when Hutch was starting....I look over to the sidelines and I see QUITE A FEW players over talking to QC the entire game....Woodson included. Yes, players do become friends and when someone is cut unexpectantly, players DO wonder and some DO get upset.

I never said he wasn't liked or that he didn't have friends on the team. But it wasn't like the guy was Brett Favre and practically worshipped by his teammates either. I can admit that it may have had an effect on some of the players, but I doubt it was so substantial an issue that it had anything to do with the poor defensive play that has cost us most of our games anyway.

You like to question BS's statement, yet nowhere have the Cowboys said that it was substance abuse. Did he do it? Probably. Did the Cowboys or QC come out and say that is what it was? Not once. Just becuase it's reported doesn't make it true...remember?

You know teams aren't allowed to discuss test results. If it were untrue, don't you think Carter would have at the very least denied the claims?? There was nothing to stop him from that. He only said he didn't use cocaine, but never denied the marijuana. Nice try, but it doesn't fly.

No, Irvin would have absolutely NO WAY of knowing this right? BTW, just becuase it is speculated by a person that has connections to the team does not make it UNTRUE.

So what if they tried to re-sign him? It wasn't like he was being courted by any other teams anyway. It took 2 injuries to backups and nearly a month for the Jets to even give the guy a sniff. And don't you think if the substance abuse claims weren't true, teams would have been competing for his services? Remember, he's soooo good!

He was one bad night away from a 4-game PAYCHECK forfeiture....NOT suspension. At least that is what is REPORTED....not to mention clock management is also a COACHING responsibility. Look at Washington THIS year versus last year, with the SAME QB, now.

If you believe what's been reported, he failed his SECOND test before TC. He supposedly entered the league with ONE strike. Your THIRD positive test is a mandatory Four-Game Suspension.

Dilfer went 4 or 5 straight games without throwing for over 100 yards....and his team won the superbowl.....and he's also a QB that some on here want.

Baltimore won the SB because of a dominant defense rarely seen in the NFL. For the record, I don't want Dilfer either.

Tell me that JJ wasn't looking for ANY opportunity to get rid of QC. Alot of people here predicted it before the TC even got underway that JJ would find a way to cut him.

Jerry reached in the 2nd Round for him in the first place and cutting him would only prove that he was wrong to draft him in the first place. I thought Jerry's ego was too big to admit such a mistake. By the way, a lot of people on this board predict a lot of things all the time. Throw mud at a wall and some of it is bound to stick.

Again, if he failed a test....reportedly, it would have only been a 4-game pay check forfeiture....not 4 game suspension.

Third failed test = 4 Game Suspension. (I don't make the rules)

Let me get this straight.....his stats are virtually exact to a 17-18 year vet? Wow....that's pretty good for a young QB to already be on par with veteran. (Tongue-in-cheek.)

Yeah, they both suck. So we want the younger "suckie" guy back?? Not me. Time to move on!

 

[Jimz31]

Geezzz.....I have the " The Story of the 2003 Dallas Cowboys.....The Boys are Back DVD" ( Christmas Present.....couldn't get the History of the Dallas Cowboys DVD )

and.....Carter never once threw a duck.....actually he looked great...

BTW...alot of QB's have to make a adjustments to the NFL ball.....

Manning even had trouble and changed his gripe the first year he was in the NFL.

The "learning how to grip the football" statement is probably THE MOST overblown statement that there is.

Even Aikman had to learn how to grip the ball.

Shoot, I don't know of ONE QB that didn't have to. The football IS DIFFERENT than in college.

 

[Waffle]

Actually, Ross is playing with the Vikings and actually played last week. In fact, I think he started. J-Mart is playing with the Dolphins.

Ross was cut last week. Martin is playing with the Dolphins and is on the roster so far this week.

 

[Waffle]

Geezzz.....I have the " The Story of the 2003 Dallas Cowboys.....The Boys are Back DVD" ( Christmas Present.....couldn't get the History of the Dallas Cowboys DVD )

and.....Carter never once threw a duck.....actually he looked great...

BTW...alot of QB's have to make a adjustments to the NFL ball.....

Manning even had trouble and changed his gripe the first year he was in the NFL.

I never said he didn't improve his throws, people. Talke about Geezzz. I said he came into the league and had to be "retaught" his entire throwing mechanics.

By the way, I have the same DVD and I love it. But we all know those NFL films presentations show only the good plays. How many of Carter's 20 interceptions does the DVD show??

 

[Jimz31]

I expect MUCH more from the QB position than what either Vinny OR Carter have thrown out there. You should too.

(And last time I checked, Quincy is a veteran too. I mean come on...the guy's been in the league FOUR years now.)

I DO expect more than what we have had, however, I am NOT going to expect QC who DID NOT have that many starts under his belt to just light it up like a seasoned veteran.

(Last time I checked it takes a while for players....look at Brees. Players like Ben R. are the exception rather than the norm. Leftwich isn't exactly tearing it up yet, either.)

I never said he wasn't liked or that he didn't have friends on the team. But it wasn't like the guy was Brett Favre and practically worshipped by his teammates either. I can admit that it may have had an effect on some of the players, but I doubt it was so substantial an issue that it had anything to do with the poor defensive play that has cost us most of our games anyway.

I would say that the other players know of other players that are still on the team that also smoke weed. They can see double-standards. LT, comes to mind.

I do agree that it probably isn't as substantial an issue as some are making it out to be. Once players get on the field they play the game and don't think about anything else like that.

You know teams aren't allowed to discuss test results. If it were untrue, don't you think Carter would have at the very least denied the claims?? There was nothing to stop him from that. He only said he didn't use cocaine, but never denied the marijuana. Nice try, but it doesn't fly.

I said that he probably DID smoke some weed, but it still wouldn't have resulted in a 4-game suspension...I'll go on the record (again) and say that he won't ever get suspended for 4 games.

So what if they tried to re-sign him? It wasn't like he was being courted by any other teams anyway. It took 2 injuries to backups and nearly a month for the Jets to even give the guy a sniff. And don't you think if the substance abuse claims weren't true, teams would have been competing for his services? Remember, he's soooo good!

None of us KNOW if other teams didn't contact him. If I remember correctly, other teams were interested in him. Who knows, TC isn't the time to be signing other QB's anyway, it's for finding out what you DO HAVE. Every team has QB's that they bring in, and they want to find out if they have that "diamond in the rough". What is so hard about understanding that?

If you believe what's been reported, he failed his SECOND test before TC. He supposedly entered the league with ONE strike. Your THIRD positive test is a mandatory Four-Game Suspension.

Go back and read the reports for yourself. They have all said that it would be a 4 game check....NOT 4 game SUSPENSION.

Baltimore won the SB because of a dominant defense rarely seen in the NFL. For the record, I don't want Dilfer either.

I was making a point that stats don't tell the whole story.....we led the league in offensive plays.....this DOES keep the defense off the field longer and also leads to better field position as we drove the ball better.

Jerry reached in the 2nd Round for him in the first place and cutting him would only prove that he was wrong to draft him in the first place. I thought Jerry's ego was too big to admit such a mistake. By the way, a lot of people on this board predict a lot of things all the time. Throw mud at a wall and some of it is bound to stick.

And we all thought that JJ's ego was too big to bring someone of BP stature in to coach this team as well. Like I said a while back JJ has changed.

Third failed test = 4 Game Suspension. (I don't make the rules)

Again, go back and read the statements made by Mort and others.....4 game paycheck comes before 4 game suspensions....I don't make the rules either.

Yeah, they both suck. So we want the younger "suckie" guy back?? Not me. Time to move on!

I never said that they didn't.....My position on the QB situation hasn't changed ONCE. Brees would have been vilified from the beginning here with people wanting him cut. It takes time for MOST QB's to get the hang of it all. Read what Aikman says about it....3 years before he even felt comfortable with the speed, etc.

 

[Rude]

I never said he didn't improve his throws, people. Talke about Geezzz. I said he came into the league and had to be "retaught" his entire throwing mechanics.

A lot of QB's have to fix their "entire throwing mechanics", Carr, Rivers, Henson will have to, and etc.

 

[Gaede]

did this really need another thread?

you think people won't read this in the other one?

 

[Mash]

Waffle,


I was making a joke....of course a highlite reel won't show the bad plays...

"I said he came into the league and had to be "retaught" his entire throwing mechanics"

Bascially what we a doing with Henson as we speak.....should we critisize him also when he becomes a starter.

"So what if they tried to re-sign him? It wasn't like he was being courted by any other teams anyway. It took 2 injuries to backups and nearly a month for the Jets to even give the guy a sniff. And don't you think if the substance abuse claims weren't true, teams would have been competing for his services? Remember, he's soooo good!"

It was late in training camp.....teams are set....If Carter was let go at the end of the season last year......I bet my house he would of been picked up pretty quickly......The Time it happened and the issue with pot was the major factors....not his talent.....There are alot of pathetic QB's in this league as backups.....There are even a bunch of pathetic starters...like our own in Vinny.

I'm not saying Carter is any good or not....

What I don't understand is why we didn't just keep him as a backup.....4 game suspension or not wouldn't of really affected this team. But in keeping him would of gave us some insurance and kept the media off Bills back in asking when Henson is playing

It was a blunder by mangement IMHO....then they backtrack and try to resign him to save what?

The money they wasted on George,Wiley...etc....hehe!

 

[Waffle]

Jimz...with all due respect, you are NEVER going to convince me that Quincy Carter was our QB future or that he is/was on the cusp of greatness. Drew Brees is a nice story, but it's definitely not the norm.

I was 100% behind Quincy when he was here. I saw EVERY one of his snaps in pre-season and the regular season. For THREE friggin' years!! There were some (more like a few) plays where he absolutely amazed me. Then there were the plays where he looked like, well... Quincy Carter.

Was he servicable? Yes. Was he the next Troy, Danny, Roger, or Dandy Don? Hardly. Those QBs are the standard this organization has set since it's inception and we shouldn't settle for anything less. Period!

If Carter is truly on the verge of "breaking out" like Brees did, let's see if he unseats Pennington in NY as the starter. You don't keep talent like that on the bench now, do you??

 

[Mash]

Jim;

the four game check is basically a four game suspension unless it runs into our bye week....then he will have a 3 game suspension but a 4 game check....seeing how players still get paid on the bye.

 

[Waffle]

Waffle,


I was making a joke....of course a highlite reel won't show the bad plays...

"I said he came into the league and had to be "retaught" his entire throwing mechanics"

Bascially what we a doing with Henson as we speak.....should we critisize him also when he becomes a starter.

"So what if they tried to re-sign him? It wasn't like he was being courted by any other teams anyway. It took 2 injuries to backups and nearly a month for the Jets to even give the guy a sniff. And don't you think if the substance abuse claims weren't true, teams would have been competing for his services? Remember, he's soooo good!"

It was late in training camp.....teams are set....If Carter was let go at the end of the season last year......I bet my house he would of been picked up pretty quickly......The Time it happened and the issue with pot was the major factors....not his talent.....There are alot of pathetic QB's in this league as backups.....There are even a bunch of pathetic starters...like our own in Vinny.

I'm not saying Carter is any good or not....

What I don't understand is why we didn't just keep him as a backup.....4 game suspension or not wouldn't of really affected this team. But in keeping him would of gave us some insurance and kept the media off Bills back in asking when Henson is playing

It was a blunder by mangement IMHO....then they backtrack and try to resign him to save what?

The money they wasted on George,Wiley...etc....hehe!

Yeah, I wouldn't have been opposed to him staying and competing for the job. If he was better than Vinny, then I'm all for it. But if Romo is as good as Bill seems to think he will be, he probably would have been cut and on another team's roster by now.

 

[Mash]

hmmm.....you are probally right Waffle...

but then again....if we can keep the likes of Randle Williams on this roster.....I think we could of found a way to keep Romo.

Keeping 4 QB's has been done before.

 

[FolsomCowboy]

Jimz...with all due respect, you are NEVER going to convince me that Quincy Carter was our QB future or that he is/was on the cusp of greatness. Drew Brees is a nice story, but it's definitely not the norm.

I was 100% behind Quincy when he was here. I saw EVERY one of his snaps in pre-season and the regular season. For THREE friggin' years!! There were some (more like a few) plays where he absolutely amazed me. Then there were the plays where he looked like, well... Quincy Carter.

Was he servicable? Yes. Was he the next Troy, Danny, Roger, or Dandy Don? Hardly. Those QBs are the standard this organization has set since it's inception and we shouldn't settle for anything less. Period!

If Carter is truly on the verge of "breaking out" like Brees did, let's see if he unseats Pennington in NY as the starter. You don't keep talent like that on the bench now, do you??

No he was not the next Troy Aikman, but then again neither is Vinny, and thats what we are trotting out on the field every week this year, and from the mouth of JJ and BP possibly next year. I will say this tho, with Quincy Carter this year I would wager this team is in the playoffs, at least if we arent gonna develop a young QB like Henson lets win some frikkin games.