Why Saying "Cutting Carter Was a Blunder" is Absurd

[joseephuss]

hmmm.....you are probally right Waffle...

but then again....if we can keep the likes of Randle Williams on this roster.....I think we could of found a way to keep Romo.

Keeping 4 QB's has been done before.

I always figured Romo would have ended up on the practice squad. Had Quincy not been cut, Romo would have seen less snaps in practice and pre-season games. I doubt any team would be willing to place a guy on their active roster that showed them absolutely nothing in the pre-season. Heck, Bill is hesitant to get him playing time after being out of the playoff hunt and he gets to see Romo all the time.

 

[DIAF]

Cutting Carter may not have been a blunder, but doing it for VINNY TESTERVERDE surely was.

 

[Little Jr]

1. They cut a hard working, yet unpopular young QB who was headed into 4th season as starter and happened to play on a team that went 5-1 in their first six games, yet his play declined the rest of the season as he "led the team" to a 5-6 finish down the stretch when it really mattered. Player had upside only because of age even though his stats are virtually IDENTICAL to Vinny's. Yes, Vinny is obviously on the downside of career.

2. Players weren't concerned that Carter was dumped like that, VT was GIVEN the job because Romo and Henson weren't ready. Sugar may have mentioned the team was not onboard with this move, but do we really know that to be an absolute truth? (No offense BSugar )

3. While it forced Dallas to play the entire season with a 41 year old QB, Vinny was brought in to COMPETE with Quincy, not back him up. In addition, nobody forced or mandated Quincy to violate the league's substance abuse policy mulitple times.

4. Just because someone speculated that the team offered Carter a contract after he was cut doesn't make it true.

5. JJ cut a player who was one bad night away from a 4 game suspension. While Carter seems to be a model player in New York, getting cut could have been a necessary wake up call for him. While a 98 Qb rating at NY may look good on the surface, his poor clock management skills at the end of the Baltimore contest cost them the game.

(READ THIS NORS) The next week, he was only able to put up 116 yards and lead the team to a measly 10 points at lowly Cleveland, who gave up over 250 yards passing and 4 TDs to psuedo-rookie Carson Palmer and the Bengals just the week before. Quincy barely completed 50% of his passes against Cleveland (going 11/20), and he only threw for a pathetic 133 yards in his start against the Cardinals. In Quincy's two starts, the Jets only scored a TOTAL of 23 points, but won on the back of a good defense. (That sounds familiar)


6) Was this cut was a JJ slap at Parcells? Don't think so since Parcells makes all the moves. Now, if you write for profootball talk.com, you could make up a unsubstantiated story implying that Parcells embarrassed Jerry by going with Carter over Hutch in 2003 and so Jerry cut Carter.

7) What was the risk in keeping Carter? Well, most teams don't keep 4 QBs on the roster. He fails a “test” you are back to only TWO QBs.

Look...the guy came to the Cowboys as a 2nd Round reach with Jerry Jones slobbering all over him. And the guy couldn't even throw a spiral. Wade Wilson basically had to re-teach him how to throw from scratch. He still threw his share of "ducks" even after working on his technique. He started as a rookie until injured, and then he played his way to the bench in 2002. He played ALL of 2003 and didn't improve as we collapsed to a 5-6 record to end the season. His stats are virtually exact to Vinny's.

Ask yourself this question. Was Quincy Carter a QB who's play even resembled Troy Aikman's or made you think he could be as good? How about Danny White?

It's laughable how some people have lowered their standards and expectations so much at QB since Aikman left.

Great post!

 

[Jimz31]

Jimz...with all due respect, you are NEVER going to convince me that Quincy Carter was our QB future or that he is/was on the cusp of greatness. Drew Brees is a nice story, but it's definitely not the norm.

I was 100% behind Quincy when he was here. I saw EVERY one of his snaps in pre-season and the regular season. For THREE friggin' years!! There were some (more like a few) plays where he absolutely amazed me. Then there were the plays where he looked like, well... Quincy Carter.

Was he servicable? Yes. Was he the next Troy, Danny, Roger, or Dandy Don? Hardly. Those QBs are the standard this organization has set since it's inception and we shouldn't settle for anything less. Period!

If Carter is truly on the verge of "breaking out" like Brees did, let's see if he unseats Pennington in NY as the starter. You don't keep talent like that on the bench now, do you??

In no way am I saying that he was or even could have been the future.

As far as talent being kept on the bench (not talking about QC here), yes, it DOES happen. Staubach was kept on the bench for awhile....how many years was Culpepper sitting? There are plenty of QB's that didn't reach being very good until they had a couple of years of already starting.

Brees is not the exception. There are more QB's out there that grew significantly when they hit year #3. The exceptions are the Ben Roethlisberger's.

 

[Waffle]

In no way am I saying that he was or even could have been the future.

As far as talent being kept on the bench (not talking about QC here), yes, it DOES happen. Staubach was kept on the bench for awhile....how many years was Culpepper sitting? There are plenty of QB's that didn't reach being very good until they had a couple of years of already starting.

Brees is not the exception. There are more QB's out there that grew significantly when they hit year #3. The exceptions are the Ben Roethlisberger's.

So we actually agree on more than I originally thought. I just think keeping Quincy around would have taken up a roster spot from guys like Henson, Romo, and whoever else. If Quincy wanted to be at least the "veteran backup" or even compete for the starting position, I think that would be acceptable.

 

[silverbear]

good post.

Wish we could say the same about your post... sadly, it's just a misguided rant...

yup we gave up so much yet Q is BARELY a #2 QB in this league. Last I checked nobody wanted him til the Jets had a few injuries at the QB position.

Ahhhh, even MORE mindless Quincy hatred...

When you're cut a week into training camp, how many QB jobs do you expect to be available, hater??

And according to rumors that seem to come from Michael Irvin, the COWBOYS tried to talk Quincy into re-signing with them just a couple-three weeks after they cut him...

Meanwhile, you have absolutely no idea if any other teams approached Quincy about signing with them, only to be rebuffed because he didn't think they were a good situation for him... nope, you just blindly assume that nobody wanted Quincy, until the Jets came calling...

Just like all the posts about how losing Derek Ross and Jamar Martin was significant yet they aren't on an NFL roster at this point. Ross has been given at least 2-3 teams and still is out of work and Martin was never picked up

Wow, he and the Dolphins will be surprised to hear that... looks like you're a classic hater, which is why you don't even bother to get your facts straight...

Haters have zero credibility...

 

[silverbear]

I never said he didn't improve his throws, people. Talke about Geezzz. I said he came into the league and had to be "retaught" his entire throwing mechanics.

Ahhh, but did he REALLY "have to" be retaught his mechanics, or was that Wade Wilson's mistake?? Seems to me that he threw the ball pretty well in college, no reports of "ducks" in his assorted scouting reports...

So it just might be that Wade Wilson was a very bad QBs coach, and screwed Quincy up needlessly... for that matter, for all we know Quincy went back to throwing the ball his "old" way once Wilson left the team...

You might ponder how Wade hasn't gotten any other jobs as a QB coach... to me, this suggests that the rest of the league doesn't think he's real good at that job... then, you might ponder Quincy's 60 per cent completion rate this season, and his quarterback rating of over 98, and his 8.6 yards per attempt, and ask yourself if maybe, just maybe, Quincy hasn't evolved into a fair to middling QB...

Of course, if you DO show the intellectual flexibility to ask yourself those tough questions, you might wind up wondering why you still hate the guy so much...

 

[silverbear]

Quincy barely completed 50% of his passes against Cleveland (going 11/20),

There is nothing more contemptible than cherry picking stats like that... yeah, he was "only" 11 for 20 against Cleveland... that's a 55 per cent completion rate, and that's just not as bad as you make it sound... particularly not when you look at his SEASON completion rate, which is a career-best 60.3...

and he only threw for a pathetic 133 yards in his start against the Cardinals.

And even more contemptible twisting of the stats... yeah, Quincy only threw for a "pathetic" 133 yards against the Cards... of course, he did that on only TWELVE passes, because he MISSED much of the game with an injury...

I don't know about you, but if I have a quarterback who gains 133 yards on just 12 passes, I'm gonna give him an "attaboy" at the end of the game... that's a very GOOD performance, and it's nauseating watching you try to make it out to be a bad performance...

What's doubly disgusting about that blatant attempt to twist the truth is that I suspect you KNOW that Quincy missed a chunk of that game due to injury... but that didn't keep you from distorting the facts, in pursuit of your agenda as a mindless Quincy hater...

He started as a rookie until injured, and then he played his way to the bench in 2002.

That just happened because Bruce Coslet is a freakin' moron, and he had a hard-on for his pet Chad... it was a tactical blunder of monumental proportions, as evidenced by Chad's 2-7 record as a starter... and of course, the NEXT year Quincy played his way back onto the field (putting Coslet's pet back on the bench), where he remained the starter for the entire season... but you're not interested in presenting a fair and balanced picture of his play for the Boys, so you conveniently ignore anything positive about the guy...

And that, of course, is why your arguments lack validity...

 

[silverbear]

Jimz...with all due respect, you are NEVER going to convince me that Quincy Carter was our QB future

Of course not, you're a hater... none of us is ever going to change the mind of a hater...

The only reason I bother to respond is so that your propagandistic BS isn't the ONLY side of the story presented in this Great Quincy Debate... perhaps there are some less-informed fans reading this thread who don't know the whole truth, and it's just wrong to let your distortions and cherry-picked stats stand as the only take on this issue...

Then again, had you bothered to be a little more fair and balanced in your critique of Quincy, I might not have had to respond at all...

 

[Waffle]

Ahhh, but did he REALLY "have to" be retaught his mechanics, or was that Wade Wilson's mistake?? Seems to me that he threw the ball pretty well in college, no reports of "ducks" in his assorted scouting reports...

Well, I actually WATCHED Quincy in college at Georgia and haven't relied on "scouting reports" as you do. It "seemed" he threw the ball pretty well in college because he did early in his career. His ducks became more frequent as he college career neared it's end. It's why he fell off the Heisman map.

So it just might be that Wade Wilson was a very bad QBs coach, and screwed Quincy up needlessly... for that matter, for all we know Quincy went back to throwing the ball his "old" way once Wilson left the team...

That's just pure nonsense! Quincy is on the record as saying that Wade Wilson helped him dramatically as a passer and he still uses the technique he was taught to this day.

You might ponder how Wade hasn't gotten any other jobs as a QB coach... to me, this suggests that the rest of the league doesn't think he's real good at that job...

Again, you are clueless. Wade Wilson is the QB coach of the Bears.

then, you might ponder Quincy's 60 per cent completion rate this season, and his quarterback rating of over 98, and his 8.6 yards per attempt, and ask yourself if maybe, just maybe, Quincy hasn't evolved into a fair to middling QB...

Let's look at his 98 rating. Quincy was only able to put up 116 yards and lead the Jets to a measly 10 points at lowly Cleveland, who gave up over 250 yards passing and 4 TDs to psuedo-rookie Carson Palmer and the Bengals just the week before. Quincy barely completed 50% of his passes against Cleveland (going 11/20), and he only threw for a pathetic 133 yards in his start against the Cardinals. In Quincy's two starts, the Jets only scored a TOTAL of 23 points, but won on the back of a good defense. (That sounds familiar) The 8.6/ attempt you mention is a joke. Take away the one pass to Santana Moss for 69 yards and his per/att. number takes a nosedive.

Of course, if you DO show the intellectual flexibility to ask yourself those tough questions, you might wind up wondering why you still hate the guy so much...

I don't hate the guy. I was behind him almost 100% until late last season when he folded. He just plain isn't the Cowboys QB of the future, that's all. Neither is Vinny. Let's bring somebody else in for a shot.

 

[Waffle]

There is nothing more contemptible than cherry picking stats like that... yeah, he was "only" 11 for 20 against Cleveland... that's a 55 per cent completion rate, and that's just not as bad as you make it sound... particularly not when you look at his SEASON completion rate, which is a career-best 60.3...

I posted these individual details of his stats to refute another post that made Quincy's QB rating of 98 sound like he's been Marinoesque or something. I never said his play was horrible, just that the 98 rating is skewed. He has played decent for the Jets, but by no means was he a world beater.

And even more contemptible twisting of the stats... yeah, Quincy only threw for a "pathetic" 133 yards against the Cards... of course, he did that on only TWELVE passes, because he MISSED much of the game with an injury...

Exactly. That's why his Jets passer rating is so overrated because he really didn't even play all that much. Go back to last year's 16 game stats for a true reflection of Quincy's QB play. Or better yet, look at Vinny's this year...same difference.

I don't know about you, but if I have a quarterback who gains 133 yards on just 12 passes, I'm gonna give him an "attaboy" at the end of the game... that's a very GOOD performance, and it's nauseating watching you try to make it out to be a bad performance...

Well, I'd probably be spending a majority of my time giving "attaboy's" to my defense that only allowed THREE points in that game. Then I'd thank the rest of the guys afterwards.

What's doubly disgusting about that blatant attempt to twist the truth is that I suspect you KNOW that Quincy missed a chunk of that game due to injury... but that didn't keep you from distorting the facts, in pursuit of your agenda as a mindless Quincy hater...

This is drivel. "Mindless Quincy Hater?" I didn't distort facts nor do I have an agenda against Quincy. The guy is an average NFL QB that did a decent job at best for the Cowboys. My whole point again was that Quincy isn't the "elite" QB or "QB of the Future" in my opinion for the Cowboys due to his inconsistancy and mediocre play. I guess Parcells agreed.

That just happened because Bruce Coslet is a freakin' moron, and he had a hard-on for his pet Chad... it was a tactical blunder of monumental proportions, as evidenced by Chad's 2-7 record as a starter... and of course, the NEXT year Quincy played his way back onto the field (putting Coslet's pet back on the bench), where he remained the starter for the entire season...

I actually agree with everything you say here. That whole move ruined Chad's potential Cowboy future in the process and Quincy was the best QB on the roster in 2003 and deserved to start.

But you're not interested in presenting a fair and balanced picture of his play for the Boys, so you conveniently ignore anything positive about the guy...

It wasn't my job to post the positives about him because that had already been done. I think you are more interested in calling me names and accusing me of some sort of anti-Quincy agenda than actually trying to comprehend the whole reason for my post(s) in the first place.

And that, of course, is why your arguments lack validity...

No, they lack valid rebuttles.

 

[Waffle]

Of course not, you're a hater... none of us is ever going to change the mind of a hater...

The only reason I bother to respond is so that your propagandistic BS isn't the ONLY side of the story presented in this Great Quincy Debate... perhaps there are some less-informed fans reading this thread who don't know the whole truth, and it's just wrong to let your distortions and cherry-picked stats stand as the only take on this issue...

Then again, had you bothered to be a little more fair and balanced in your critique of Quincy, I might not have had to respond at all...

Again, this thread was in direct response to the "Cutting Quincy was a Blunder" Thread which you know exists and posted on as well. Why in the hell do I have to post Quincy's "positives" when they were already posted to begin with? If I thought they told the whole story of Quincy's QB performance, I wouldn't have bothered to respond either.

By the way, did you happen rip Nors for not putting up some of Quincy's negatives in his posts?? Of course not.

He wasn't "fair and balanced" then either, was he???

 

[silverbear]

I posted these individual details of his stats to refute another post that made Quincy's QB rating of 98 sound like he's been Marinoesque or something. I never said his play was horrible, just that the 98 rating is skewed. He has played decent for the Jets, but by no means was he a world beater.

OK, fair enough... your context wasn't clear, but now that you've explained it...

Exactly. That's why his Jets passer rating is so overrated because he really didn't even play all that much. Go back to last year's 16 game stats for a true reflection of Quincy's QB play.

Your first argument has validity, your second doesn't... while his improved stats this year MIGHT just be the result of a small sample size, that is hardly a proven fact... it might also be the result of improvement on his part...

It seems to me that the radical reduction in the number of "impulse mistakes" in his limited playing time this year suggests the latter possibility is quite real... in that case, last year's stats would not be a more accurate reflection of Quincy's QB play NOW...

My whole point again was that Quincy isn't the "elite" QB or "QB of the Future" in my opinion for the Cowboys due to his inconsistancy and mediocre play. I guess Parcells agreed.

Well, if you're sittin' around waitin' on the next Aikman, good luck... me, I'll settle for a reasonably competent field general, and try to build a really solid team around him... and I still think that if Quincy hadn't decided to indulge in some recreational smoke, he could have ultimately developed into a Steve McNair clone... I'd give anything to have a Steve McNair clone playing quarterback for the Cowboys...

Inconsistency happens, when you're inexperienced... usually, the remedy for it is to get some more experience... permit me to note that Troy Aikman wasn't Troy Aikman in his first couple-three years in the league, either... quarterbacks need time to DEVELOP...

It wasn't my job to post the positives about him because that had already been done. I think you are more interested in calling me names and accusing me of some sort of anti-Quincy agenda than actually trying to comprehend the whole reason for my post(s) in the first place.

When somebody cranks out a semi-scathing indictment of a player, with absolutely no attempt at balance, no attempt to outline any of the positives, it's not too tough figuring out his agenda... you clearly dislike the play of Quincy so much that you have selected your own set of stats that justify your distaste for the guy, and ignore anything that calls your bias into question...

No mention of him being 16-15 as a starter for some very bad Cowboys teams... no mention of him posting the 5th highest single season passing yardage total in team history... and as we've already discussed, a heavy focus on carefully culled stats from this year's play, which badly distorts the picture of his overall play...

Yeah, you clearly have an axe to grind with Quincy Carter, and are quite willing to play with the stats to craft an argument to justify your position... of course, the fact that you have to resort to carefully culled stats to advance that argument is a clear indicator that your argument is fundamentally flawed...

Prior to Quincy being cut at the start of training camp, the Quincy haters were all assuring us that he had reached the limit of his potential, that his play last year was as good as it was ever gonna get... meanwhile, the Quincy backers were saying that he was still young, still inexperienced, and that it was not unreasonable at all to expect continuing progress...

Well, though the sample size was small this year, it is clear that Quincy DID continue to make progress this season... and there is still no logical reason to believe that he can't continue to progress... you clearly subscribe to the "Quincy's potential is maxed out" school of thought, and are now trying to find some rationale to justify his apparent improvement this year...

 

[Waffle]

Your first argument has validity, your second doesn't... while his improved stats this year MIGHT just be the result of a small sample size, that is hardly a proven fact... it might also be the result of improvement on his part...

Then again, it may be due to the small sample size. In reality, none of us know, do we?

It seems to me that the radical reduction in the number of "impulse mistakes" in his limited playing time this year suggests the latter possibility is quite real... in that case, last year's stats would not be a more accurate reflection of Quincy's QB play NOW...

I can point out games where several QBs had 2-3 great games during the season but were a disappointment in most of the others. Boller and Krenzel come to mind. If Quincy had played more than a total of 2 games out of 16, we'd have a better idea of his play NOW.

Well, if you're sittin' around waitin' on the next Aikman, good luck... me, I'll settle for a reasonably competent field general, and try to build a really solid team around him... and I still think that if Quincy hadn't decided to indulge in some recreational smoke, he could have ultimately developed into a Steve McNair clone... I'd give anything to have a Steve McNair clone playing quarterback for the Cowboys...

It beats sittin' around waitin' for Quincy to become the next Steve McNair in my opinion. He started 31 games for us over three seasons and I (along with the coaching staff) obviously didn't see enough improvement in his play to give me any hope that he was something other than what he is...Quincy Carter. Everybody rips Vinny, yet his play has been almost identical to Quincy's...except Carter is much more mobile. Then again, I'm even more mobile than Vinny. Quincy reminds me more of an Aaron Brooks than McNair. And Aaron will probably be back with the Saints again for another season of mediocrity.

Inconsistency happens, when you're inexperienced... usually, the remedy for it is to get some more experience... permit me to note that Troy Aikman wasn't Troy Aikman in his first couple-three years in the league, either... quarterbacks need time to DEVELOP...

Well, I'm not going to say that Carter had NO CHANCE to improve this season having a year of starting for Parcells under his belt. And I grant that he worked very hard during the 2003 season. But he did himself no favors by violating a rule that jeopardized him even playing at all.

I was also tiring of his forced "leadership" on the team. Leaders don't have to constantly tell people they are "leaders". People just know.

When somebody cranks out a semi-scathing indictment of a player, with absolutely no attempt at balance, no attempt to outline any of the positives, it's not too tough figuring out his agenda... you clearly dislike the play of Quincy so much that you have selected your own set of stats that justify your distaste for the guy, and ignore anything that calls your bias into question...

And you have done the exact opposite. You clearly like the play of Quincy so much compared to what's on our roster now that you have selected to ignore the stats (not MY STATS by the way) that justify partially why he is no longer with the team anymore. Again, his positives were already mentioned in the original post and there is no requirement that a person must post all the positives about players they also post negatives about. With all due respect, that's just plain silly. And for the record, I am not currently employed by FoxNews.

No mention of him being 16-15 as a starter for some very bad Cowboys teams... no mention of him posting the 5th highest single season passing yardage total in team history... and as we've already discussed, a heavy focus on carefully culled stats from this year's play, which badly distorts the picture of his overall play...

Again, you Quincy apologists have already posted these same facts over and over. I am the one who actually pointed out the WHOLE story by listing the facts you guys keep leaving out.

Yeah, you clearly have an axe to grind with Quincy Carter, and are quite willing to play with the stats to craft an argument to justify your position... of course, the fact that you have to resort to carefully culled stats to advance that argument is a clear indicator that your argument is fundamentally flawed...

No, I don't have any axe to grind with Quincy Carter whatsoever. And just pointing out only negatives does not make an argument fundamentally flawed. What makes someone's argument fundamentally flawed is when they ONLY see the positives and choose to ignore the rest. I have granted you Quincy's positives that have been posted over and over again, yet you call the negatives "carefully culled stats."

I think that there was a reasonable chance Quincy would have played better than Vinny and improved from last year if he were still on the team. How much better we'll never know. I didn't "play" with stats, I only stated the ones you guys keep leaving out in order to justify your own position regarding Quincy.

Prior to Quincy being cut at the start of training camp, the Quincy haters were all assuring us that he had reached the limit of his potential, that his play last year was as good as it was ever gonna get... meanwhile, the Quincy backers were saying that he was still young, still inexperienced, and that it was not unreasonable at all to expect continuing progress...

Well, though the sample size was small this year, it is clear that Quincy DID continue to make progress this season... and there is still no logical reason to believe that he can't continue to progress... you clearly subscribe to the "Quincy's potential is maxed out" school of thought, and are now trying to find some rationale to justify his apparent improvement this year...

Hey, I wished the guy had worked out seeing how Jerry picked him in the 2nd round and all waited and hoped for the guy to become the unquestioned starter for three years. But he's gone now and maybe he's learned from all the poor decisions he made on and off the field here in Dallas.