CFZ Why Speed Matters

[tyke1doe]

Rice was probably not much faster than 4.6 going from a standing start. If you ever watched him run you would know he is what we refer to as a long strider. Those guys typically take longer to get going than smaller quicker guys. My guess is that in Rice's case if he had been a track man he would have been a 200 meter or 400 meter man. He had a long, beautiful stride but simply might not have been as explosive from a dead start as some others. And Mississippi Valley State is 1-AA. That aint no "junior college level players." There are a probably a few dozen Hall of Famers who played on that same level as them.. Mean Joe Greene, Walter Payton, Deacon Jones, Shannon Sharpe, Bob Hayes, Harold Jackson, Michael Strahan, Gene Upshaw, John Randle, Larry Little, and on and on and on.. You should show those guys a little more respect.

I was joking about the "junior college level players."

However, the league has always looked for athletes primarily from "big schools."
As for the players from smaller schools whom you mentioned, most of them came from HBCUs because of the system at the time (we can't talk about it here). Many of the players you mentioned were from the 70s and 80s when PWIs still weren't recruiting those players in abundance.
Now, the talent has been depleted at HBCUs because PWIs are recruiting such talent.

Still, my point is Rice was probably faster than 4.6. He played against lesser competition, and players from schools not D-1 level are looked at with a bit of skepticism, and definitely not in the first round (in general).
Jerry Rice had more than just skill set against "lesser" competition. He had the measurables also, otherwise, he wouldn't have been drafted in the first round coming from Mississippi Valley State.

At least, that's my contention.

 

[Bullflop]

My point was about Sam Williams.

He ran a 4.46 forty but he showed the power to repeatedly Bullrush OTs straight back to the QB including #9 overall pick Charles Cross.

It helps for a DE to be powerful, as well as quick and fast. I agree -- he's strong enough to get past many an OT with that strength he has. The quickness and speed only add to his skill set that much more. I've got a feeling it won't take long at all for him to excel. I'm sure Dan Quinn agrees, too.

 

[Jumbo075]

It helps for a DE to be powerful, as well as quick and fast. I agree -- he's strong enough to get past many an OT with that strength he has. The quickness and speed only add to his skill set that much more. I've got a feeling it won't take long at all for him to excel. I'm sure Dan Quinn agrees.

As I clearly said in the original post, speed is not the ONLY factor, or even the most important factor at DE. But it is a big factor when it comes to being a top level DE.

 

[Bullflop]

As I clearly said in the original post, speed is not the ONLY factor, or even the most important factor at DE. But it is a big factor when it comes to being a top level DE.

Relax, pls. I wasn't contradicting you. I realize there are different factors involved besides speed.

I surely don't doubt that speed is a big one, either. My response was strictly tied to Walker's post.

 

[xwalker]

It helps for a DE to be powerful, as well as quick and fast. I agree -- he's strong enough to get past many an OT with that strength he has. The quickness and speed only add to his skill set that much more. I've got a feeling it won't take long at all for him to excel. I'm sure Dan Quinn agrees, too.

I can't remember any 4.4 forty type players with that much of power. Some DEs like JPP had that power but he was a 4.8 forty guy.

 

[Jumbo075]

Relax, pls. I wasn't contradicting you. I realize there are different factors involved besides speed.

I surely don't doubt that speed is a big one, either. My response was strictly tied to Walker's post.

I was agreeing with you.

 

[Bullflop]

I can't remember any 4.4 forty type players with that much of power. Some DEs like JPP had that power but he was a 4.8 forty guy.

Sam is a physical freak, no question! I'm extremely excited to have someone of his ilk at DE. He'll be a starter in no time if he isn't yet.

 

[Bullflop]

I was agreeing with you.

My bad -- I misunderstood your response as being defensive.
Glad to hear we're in agreement.
I'm sure we'll agree more, from the looks of it.

 

[xwalker]

As I clearly said in the original post, speed is not the ONLY factor, or even the most important factor at DE. But it is a big factor when it comes to being a top level DE.

Agree.

Even for DEs without great forty times, their power-speed ratio is almost always very good. Maybe not forty speed but short area "quick twitch" quickness is required.

JPP was one of the few that could bullrush Tyron.
- He didn't have a great forty but his off the snap quickness was elite relative to his power.

Von Miller is at the other end with the speed to just blow by defenders but he was only 246 pounds when drafted.

DWare had both. He was very powerful for his size but could also just blow by defenders with speed.

Sam Williams has JPP power with a Von Miller forty time. His physical ability is insane.

Obviously nobody has more insane physical ability than Micah Parsons but SW is very close.

That play where he ran over both the TE and the FB without slowing down was ridiculous.

There was another play where he was a RDE but ended up being the first player to touch the RB out at the opposite side sideline.

I'll be shocked if this is not a top 5 defense this season. They have very good starting talent but even better depth. The 2nd/3rd string reminds me of the 92 seasons on defense...The wave of backups like Leon Lett, Jimmie Jones, Chad Hennings...

 

[John813]

Not disagreeing necessarily but just adding some more thoughts.

40 times are important tool but can be overrated by some, fans and NFL personnel alike. When two receivers have the exact same route running ability, footwork, handwork(fight off jams), quckness and catching ability sure a 4.3 guy will be more beneficial than a 4.5 receiver, but it's not the end all. And it's not like receivers with 4.3 speed and legit routing running talent come around often. There's a reason why Brady was successful in New England with a bunch of small receivers and Gronk. They didn't have blazing speed or Evan Engram speed(TE) but they were perfect for the gameplan and knew how to get open.
We've seen Gallup be a downfield threat even though he isn't Tyreek fast.

A player running a 4.5 in the 40 vs someone running a 4.3 40 is 1.8 yards behind the other at exactly when the first player crosses at 40 yards, if they ran side by side.
Sounds like a lot, right?
But then factor in the amount of plays where a player is running in a straight line for 40 yards and that the defense is ahead of the offensive player most of the time. Angles matter, endurance/stamina matters.

40 yard times are events where players train for perfection for the right stance, take off, stride, etc where a bad start could knock off a tenth or so. But football is anything but perfect. Have you ever watched the combine where a player will have over a tenth difference in their 40? Not to mention how some don't run the 40 at the combine but their pro day, where everyone is somehow faster lol

For defensive ends, tackles, offensive line etc the 10 yard split, vertical & long jump are IMO more important. They measure explosion off the line. It's not often DE's get a free rush to the QB however, there's no test that shows how well a DE can shed a OT outside of game tape. Parsons speed is apparent and did make a difference when he got free of blocks.

Linebackers the 3 cone is more important to me as it shows how well they can change direction in attacking downhill. 40 time may get them to the hole faster but if the RB cuts back then how well can they change/cut back.

 

[tyke1doe]

As I clearly said in the original post, speed is not the ONLY factor, or even the most important factor at DE. But it is a big factor when it comes to being a top level DE.

Often, people read what they want to read. Sigh!

 

[kskboys]

Well, all the SB rings, playoff wins, and regular season wins don't hurt.

Well, all the rules protecting the QB's, making the receivers unguardable, and having the best HC of all time don't hurt.

Joe Montana was better.

 

[Runwildboys]

Well, all the rules protecting the QB's, making the receivers unguardable, and having the best HC of all time don't hurt.

Joe Montana was better.

I won't argue that.

 

[kskboys]

Not disagreeing necessarily but just adding some more thoughts.

40 times are important tool but can be overrated by some, fans and NFL personnel alike. When two receivers have the exact same route running ability, footwork, handwork(fight off jams), quckness and catching ability sure a 4.3 guy will be more beneficial than a 4.5 receiver, but it's not the end all. And it's not like receivers with 4.3 speed and legit routing running talent come around often. There's a reason why Brady was successful in New England with a bunch of small receivers and Gronk. They didn't have blazing speed or Evan Engram speed(TE) but they were perfect for the gameplan and knew how to get open.
We've seen Gallup be a downfield threat even though he isn't Tyreek fast.

A player running a 4.5 in the 40 vs someone running a 4.3 40 is 1.8 yards behind the other at exactly when the first player crosses at 40 yards, if they ran side by side.
Sounds like a lot, right?
But then factor in the amount of plays where a player is running in a straight line for 40 yards and that the defense is ahead of the offensive player most of the time. Angles matter, endurance/stamina matters.

40 yard times are events where players train for perfection for the right stance, take off, stride, etc where a bad start could knock off a tenth or so. But football is anything but perfect. Have you ever watched the combine where a player will have over a tenth difference in their 40? Not to mention how some don't run the 40 at the combine but their pro day, where everyone is somehow faster lol

For defensive ends, tackles, offensive line etc the 10 yard split, vertical & long jump are IMO more important. They measure explosion off the line. It's not often DE's get a free rush to the QB however, there's no test that shows how well a DE can shed a OT outside of game tape. Parsons speed is apparent and did make a difference when he got free of blocks.

Linebackers the 3 cone is more important to me as it shows how well they can change direction in attacking downhill. 40 time may get them to the hole faster but if the RB cuts back then how well can they change/cut back.

In the NFL, a half a step is a lot.

 

[tyke1doe]

Speed is like beauty.

It attracts you to the one who possesses it.
It gets your attention.
It's the first thing you see, and you envision more based on it.
But once you investigate, there has to be something more there.
If you find there is something more, you get excited because you're possibly getting the total package.
If there's not, you either hang on hoping other abilities and qualities will develop or you move on pretty quickly ( notice the play on words? )

If you're slow and/or ugly, it's harder for you to get noticed.
You have to do something else to get your potential suitor's attention.
But you'd better make sure you're extraordinary in your other qualities or you don't last long.

Don't underestimate speed or beauty. I have yet to meet the man who prefers to be slower than faster. And I have yet to meet the man who says, "Yeah, she's ugly. And, she has absolutely nothing else to offer, but I'm sticking with her anyway."

 

[blueblood70]

If you kept up with this thread, you would know that that's my point.

can't keep, up in and out of the house labor day and work had me hit and run this place, sorry. Glad we are in agreement.

 

[losersgetcute]

I respectfully disagree. Marino was a great qb and a talented one at that but Brady has won 7 SB and has led his team to 10. Brady is the goat but that is just my opinion.

If Marino would have somehow switched places with Aikman, the Cowboys would have had like 8 straight SB rings. Brady would have got cut anywhere else but NE. Drew Henson was better than him at Michigan. Bledsoe leaving for Buffalo had alot to do with how he got a chance. Oakland should have signed him just to cut him for the tuck rule that gifted him his first ring.

 

[beware_d-ware]

Rotoworld did a better and more thorough statistical breakdown of this, in one of my all-time favorite internet football articles.

https://www.nbcsportsedge.com/article/combine-breakdown/which-combine-tests-matter-position?page=0

They took it a step further by subdividing some positions, eg WR. If you are a WR who's under 6 foot tall, you need to be able to fly. 40 times matter for those guys. For WRs over 6 foot though, 40 time was only correlated with success at the extremes, and explosiveness became more important.

Dez Bryant is like the archetype of that... he was never faster than average, but he was huge and unbelievably explosive.

 

[Verdict]

Overpaid sure. Overdrafted…nah, not a chance

He was drafted at the very top of the second round as a result of a trade up. Tank has been a good defender against the run, but a very mediocre pass rusher for most of his career (contract year being the outlier).

Based on production he should have been a late second-fourth round pick. He is severely lacking in the sack department. He’s pretty much Almost Anthony all over again.

 

[DanA]

He was drafted at the very top of the second round as a result of a trade up. Tank has been a good defender against the run, but a very mediocre pass rusher for most of his career (contract year being the outlier).

Based on production he should have been a late second-fourth round pick. He is severely lacking in the sack department. He’s pretty much Almost Anthony all over again.

We got:

• 8 sacks out of him in his 2nd year
• 14.5 sacks his 4th year (2nd team all pro); and
• 10.5 sacks his franchise tag year (pro bowl)

That more than enough for a early 2nd round pick. We shouldn't have paid him what we did but we got plenty of value from the pick.