Wilcox - Saints

[xwalker]

Let me preface this by saying I'm not one of those guys who think he should be benched and he has made some plays that have gone unnoticed like two deep passes he prevented against the Titans when Claiborne slipped and when Carr got beat on a double move. But he also has to get a lot better if this defense is going to get where we want it to.

So let me oblige you with some of the plays he was involved in in this past game. I'll bold the plays where I felt he was at fault.

Notable plays he was in:

Good job reviewing this with specifics.

Overall, he could have been a little better on a few plays, but I don't see any egregious errors by Wilcox. I don't see him looking clueless or lacking any speed or physical ability.

11:44 left in 2nd Q, 1st and 10
Deep pass over middle to Colston and Wilcox lays a big hit on him; Weak part of the cover 2 zone coverage; Carter should've gotten a deeper drop but there was a crosser wide open in front of him that got his attention
I think Durant needed to get a deeper drop. The crosser held up Carter, but Durant only had Colston to follow. The Safeties can't really play that tighter. The Safeties are coming forward while the WR is running down-field. This is just cover 2 where there are holes in the zone. Wilcox also has to defend against Carr's man going deep.

3:40 left in Q2, 2nd and 10
Pass to left sideline that Scandrick came off his man and broke up; initially I thought Scandrick was in man coverage but on all 22 it appears to be zone coverage; I heard someone say Wilcox just stood there but he wasn't in man coverage upon further review. The problem I have with this play is that if Brees went deep then both Scandrick and Wilcox would've been beat. Scandrick was the only guy who could make a play on both guys; Wilcox was in no man's land. I don't like the responsibilities or the zone coverage on that play.
I generally just review the plays where the opponent was actually successful. There are too many might-have-been plays in a game to really analyze all of them. Also, I don't have a frame of reference for how many might-have-been plays that highly rated DBs are involved in.

This looks like man coverage to me. Wilcox is covering the targeted WR and is a step behind him. Scandrick takes a big risk to jump the route as the receiver that he's initially covering would have been wide open if Brees had double pumped.

11:38 left in Q3, 3rd and 10 at the goal line
Pass incomplete to Cooks over the left middle. Haden pressured Brees on the play so he couldn't get much on the pass. They're in zone and Cook fakes the outside route to the left and then comes back towards the middle. Moore is already playing deep in his zone and taking out the outside and Wilcox overplays the outside like he isn't aware of Moore's assignment. Carter in the middle might have been able to make a play but the Saints had a chance because Wilcox overplayed the outside when it wasn't necessary as Moore was already there.
This is really difficult to evaluate. Moore was a little late, but he had to defend against the RB down the sideline. It looks like Carter should have been on that side of the field once the RB came out. It appears that Moore has the underneath with Wilcox over the top coverage.

5:53 left in Q3, 1st and 10 from 39
Pass incomplete to Graham over left middle. This is the play Moore came off of his man to break the pass that was already completed to Graham. I've also heard people blame Wilcox for this play but that's not his responsibility on the play; his responsibility is the guy in the flats. This is the same exact coverage that Claiborne almost intercepted against the Titans.
Yes, this looks like zone with Wilcox having an eye on the outside receiver while staying in front of the targeted receiver. Moore has the deeper responsibility.

5:16 left in Q3, 3rd and 2 from 47
Pass incomplete to Colston. This is one of the passes Bruce Carter defended. Colston had already caught the pass and Wilcox should've been in the vicinity and should have put a lick on Colston but just takes a terrible angle to the play. Not even sure what he was looking at.
Carter has man coverage on Colston with outside leverage. Wilcox has the inside on that route. If the route was 1 yard longer, Wilcox is in position for a pick.

3 plays in between: he put a lick on the RB as Spencer was tackling him after the 4th down conversion and the fumble he recovered then fumbled then recovered. Then he showed some serious speed chasing the RB with Carr on that long run. No fault of his.
Yes, I noticed that he looked fast on that breakaway play away from him.

11:20 left in Q4, 2nd and 10 from the 41
Pass complete to the RB Cadet. They're in a similar zone to the one discussed in a couple of plays above-the one Moore broke the pass on and Claiborne almost had the int against Tennessee-and Wilcox's responsibility is the flats and he attacks it too fast and has his eyes on the QB and not the man. They ran a double move and got past him. We play this zone a lot so watch for this play in upcoming weeks as opponents will try to do the same thing to see if he's still as reckless. I should mention that there was a blitz on the play and ideally the ball shoulda been out before it did. Brees avoided a rush and bought himself some more time.
I would call this man-coverage. The Saints used a legal pick play (rub play) to slow Wilcox but he still took too shallow of an angle. If it was zone, they wouldn't have followed the same receivers from start to finish. I would actually prefer to see them use a zone against this because the Cowboys have had some issues with these "rub" plays.

7:56 left in Q4, 2nd and 15 from the 35
Pass incomplete intended for Graham that Moore should have intercepted. Wilcox is pretty poor on this play and it's one of those that frustrates you about him so much. Brees looks him off but Church and Mcclain have the other half of the field taken care of. The only guy around Wilcox that he should be responsible for is Graham. If he starts edging that way after scanning the field and seeing there's no place else where he can help out then he might have had a chance at the interception. Instead, he lets Brees look him off and doesn't start reacting until the ball his thrown. We're lucky that the pass wasn't high enough and the 5'9.5 Moore was able to contest it.
Yes, he probably should have edged towards Moore's side earlier. It's easy to judge while watching the film, but he also has to be aware of the route that didn't happen with the receiver that is being covered by McClain. Church has his own guy to cover and can't help McClain which leaves the 260 pound LB (McClain) in one-on-one coverage against a receiver running deep. If that receiver had run a deep slant he would have been Wilcox's responsibility.

 

[xwalker]

Just making sure @xwalker sees this particular post, since you did a really nice job with it. I'm sure he did/will, as he's active in the thread, but I also wanted to give you some kudos for taking the time to answer the question properly.

Yes, he did an excellent job reviewing Wilcox. This is the exact type of response that I was seeking.

 

[casmith07]

Not solely judging him on ints but yes as a SS it is part of what separates good from great. Thus far in his career he has 0 sacks and 0 ints. I think he is starting to develop and I hope he can take it to the next step.

Well, he's a FS, for starters. But no, it doesn't separate good from great. That's a logical leap of faith that as someone who played the position I simply cannot make.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

11:38 left in Q3, 3rd and 10 at the goal line
Pass incomplete to Cooks over the left middle. Haden pressured Brees on the play so he couldn't get much on the pass. They're in zone and Cook fakes the outside route to the left and then comes back towards the middle. Moore is already playing deep in his zone and taking out the outside and Wilcox overplays the outside like he isn't aware of Moore's assignment. Carter in the middle might have been able to make a play but the Saints had a chance because Wilcox overplayed the outside when it wasn't necessary as Moore was already there.

This is what i am getting in terms of now knowing the assignment. We don't know that the coverage was quarters and not some high low coverage. If that was the case then Moore should have done a better job of staying underneath. This is precisely why I take coverage calls like that with a grain of salt. If it is quarters then where on Earth is the weak side underneath coverage?

As it was Wilcox made a break on the ball underneath the throw. Maybe he gets the yard and a half in time and maybe he doesn't but we don't know because the pass was 10 yards short of the mark. I will give you that he overplayed the out but not before he was able to drive on the football with the ball in the air.

5:16 left in Q3, 3rd and 2 from 47
Pass incomplete to Colston. This is one of the passes Bruce Carter defended. Colston had already caught the pass and Wilcox should've been in the vicinity and should have put a lick on Colston but just takes a terrible angle to the play. Not even sure what he was looking at.

He was trying to drive on the football and get underneath the route. He saw it way too late.

11:20 left in Q4, 2nd and 10 from the 41
Pass complete to the RB Cadet. They're in a similar zone to the one discussed in a couple of plays above-the one Moore broke the pass on and Claiborne almost had the int against Tennessee-and Wilcox's responsibility is the flats and he attacks it too fast and has his eyes on the QB and not the man. They ran a double move and got past him. We play this zone a lot so watch for this play in upcoming weeks as opponents will try to do the same thing to see if he's still as reckless. I should mention that there was a blitz on the play and ideally the ball shoulda been out before it did. Brees avoided a rush and bought himself some more time.

He looks like he is in underneath for cover 3 and he tried to jump underneath the move outside at the intermediate depth. He was looking for the throw. Moore steps inside and gives up the deep third. That looks like a brain fart on Moore's part to me as he completely abandoned the top of the defense on that inside move. One of them should have stayed deep. it may have been Wilcox but with Church in the middle third I doubt it.

7:56 left in Q4, 2nd and 15 from the 35
Pass incomplete intended for Graham that Moore should have intercepted. Wilcox is pretty poor on this play and it's one of those that frustrates you about him so much. Brees looks him off but Church and Mcclain have the other half of the field taken care of. The only guy around Wilcox that he should be responsible for is Graham. If he starts edging that way after scanning the field and seeing there's no place else where he can help out then he might have had a chance at the interception. Instead, he lets Brees look him off and doesn't start reacting until the ball his thrown. We're lucky that the pass wasn't high enough and the 5'9.5 Moore was able to contest it.

I agree he was late in responding to the 9 by the Saints best player. He needs to have better awareness. That being said he did see it but late. This is exactly the type of thing that improves with experience and i don't know why this frustrates you. Don't ever go into teaching.

 

[Doomsday101]

Well, he's a FS, for starters. But no, it doesn't separate good from great. That's a logical leap of faith that as someone who played the position I simply cannot make.

We disagree, as a defensive player he has to step up and make plays ie int and break up of passes not just tackle. I'm not trying to come down on him he is still learning and still developing. Let me ask you if right now this is as good as JJ Wilcox ever gets is that satisfactory for you? or would you look to upgrade.

 

[21Savage]

This is what i am getting in terms of now knowing the assignment. We don't know that the coverage was quarters and not some high low coverage. If that was the case then Moore should have done a better job of staying underneath. This is precisely why I take coverage calls like that with a grain of salt. If it is quarters then where on Earth is the weak side underneath coverage?

As it was Wilcox made a break on the ball underneath the throw. Maybe he gets the yard and a half in time and maybe he doesn't but we don't know because the pass was 10 yards short of the mark. I will give you that he overplayed the out but not before he was able to drive on the football with the ball in the air.

Well it was 3rd and 10 at the goal line and Moore gets a deep enough drop to cancel the out by Cooks but to also be able to rally to the underneath throw, along with Wilcox and the rest of the defense. It won't make sense to play an over, under coverage on 3rd and 10 at the goal line when the goal is to force the throw underneath and then rally to the ball.

He was trying to drive on the football and get underneath the route. He saw it way too late.

Yes, we agree he saw it too late. We're lucky Carter made a play on the ball and Wilcox's presence might very well be the reason he was able to make the play. But the safety on that play shouldn't just attack and miss after the ball is court. He should be putting his shoulder into the WR. In that defense, that play is supposed to be fool's gold.

He looks like he is in underneath for cover 3 and he tried to jump underneath the move outside at the intermediate depth. He was looking for the throw. Moore steps inside and gives up the deep third. That looks like a brain fart on Moore's part to me as he completely abandoned the top of the defense on that inside move. One of them should have stayed deep. it may have been Wilcox but with Church in the middle third I doubt it.

Being that they're in the same zone coverage I discussed in previous plays and that Clairborne had play Hunter the same way that Moore made a play on Graham earlier in the game then it appears it was just great game planning by the Saints to beat that particular zone coverage. But Wilcox was just too aggressive on the play. If he had watched the RB better then he coulda stuck with him on the double move. It wasn't that great a route.

I agree he was late in responding to the 9 by the Saints best player. He needs to have better awareness. That being said he did see it but late. This is exactly the type of thing that improves with experience and i don't know why this frustrates you. Don't ever go into teaching.

I started the conversation by saying I'm not one of those begging for him to be benched and I agree with teaching patience as he'll get better. The thread starter asked for plays where he may be at fault as if there were none at all after reviewing the film, so I responded. But it's also fair for cowboy fans to be expecting catalytic plays from their safeties. What he did on that play is what we've had for a long time now. It's about time we had players making that play when it's there to be made.

 

[xwalker]

.....

Chachi, when quoting a post, your reply should go after the quote, not inside the quote.

 

[21Savage]

Chachi, when quoting a post, your reply should go after the quote, not inside the quote.

Was this directed at me? Not sure who chachi is

 

[xwalker]

Was this directed at me? Not sure who chachi is

No, Chachi is Aliencowboy.

 

[Oh_Canada]

I like Wilcox, kid is going to only get better. People harp on the rare mistakes magnified by instant replay, it's kind of like the Orlando Scandrick syndrome from 2012.

 

[Mr Cowboy]

What’s your first quarter fix?



I am worried about J.J. Wilcox playing in coverage, and I want to fix his eyes. I know that he is learning how to play the position, so I understand that it’s an area we are going to have to deal with. But I think his development as a player would be better if he could just see the routes a little quicker and that would help him adjust to what is happening to him. There are snaps where he is still in his pedal when the route breaks, and he should be driving forward. If he saw things just a tick quicker he could make the play because we all know that he is more than willing to get into the action. His eyes could also help him in the angles that he takes in the running game. There are snaps where he is so aggressive that he tends to overrun plays and this I feel is due to how he sees plays develop. Experience will help him get a better feel for how to make plays, but his eyes will help him make more of them.

http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/a...-4-Games/28be78ac-5ace-4c4e-814a-a9283f504726

 

[casmith07]

This entire thread is proof positive that Cowboys fans and beat writers alike can't just enjoy the product on the field -- there has to be some kind of manufactured controversy or a "whipping boy" for people to harp on.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I started the conversation by saying I'm not one of those begging for him to be benched and I agree with teaching patience as he'll get better. The thread starter asked for plays where he may be at fault as if there were none at all after reviewing the film, so I responded. But it's also fair for cowboy fans to be expecting catalytic plays from their safeties. What he did on that play is what we've had for a long time now. It's about time we had players making that play when it's there to be made.

First of all I would like to point out that I have a ton of respect for your takes and that has been the case for years at this point. I disagree with you somewhat here but sometimes I lose sight of the above when I argue a point. I want you to know that i recall our dline discussions over the years with fondness.

He has started 6 games to this point in his career. Seems you have a bit of cognitive dissonance here. On the one hand you have a stated desire of r patience but then you refer to fans as a whole deserving better play from there. I see a guy that on some -not all mind you- reads is a step late. He is not oblivious or obnoxiously on the chase. You seem intent on making assumptions on balls that never got to the WR that Wilcox breaks on the ball would not have been able to make a play. Brees passes were skipped and off target.

His issues speak to me of a guy that has not closed the speed gap between practice and live games. Now it is possible that he never does but watching him run down Cadet and close the 20+ yard gap downfield speaks to his ability. He looks professional breaking down in space and delivering a blow and he is very good taking deep thirds and halves. His underneath and man work is a work in progress.

That being said they ask him to do more than Church. Barry is never manned up and Wilcox always gets the man call. Everything else they share. Under and over on cover 3 and they will flip sides on their drops. They use it to disguise coverages but Barry never gets manned up on TE and WR; that is Wilcox.

 

[21Savage]

First of all I would like to point out that I have a ton of respect for your takes and that has been the case for years at this point. I disagree with you somewhat here but sometimes I lose sight of the above when I argue a point. I want you to know that i recall our dline discussions over the years with fondness.

He has started 6 games to this point in his career. Seems you have a bit of cognitive dissonance here. On the one hand you have a stated desire of r patience but then you refer to fans as a whole deserving better play from there. I see a guy that on some -not all mind you- reads is a step late. He is not oblivious or obnoxiously on the chase. You seem intent on making assumptions on balls that never got to the WR that Wilcox breaks on the ball would not have been able to make a play. Brees passes were skipped and off target.

His issues speak to me of a guy that has not closed the speed gap between practice and live games. Now it is possible that he never does but watching him run down Cadet and close the 20+ yard gap downfield speaks to his ability. He looks professional breaking down in space and delivering a blow and he is very good taking deep thirds and halves. His underneath and man work is a work in progress.

That being said they ask him to do more than Church. Barry is never manned up and Wilcox always gets the man call. Everything else they share. Under and over on cover 3 and they will flip sides on their drops. They use it to disguise coverages but Barry never gets manned up on TE and WR; that is Wilcox.

I agree with more being asked of him than Church 2/2 his physical ability. I never harped on him getting beat by TEs one on one in man coverage because I think people's expectations of his performance in that area are unreasonable. We see a first round safety like Vacaro being beaten by the slow footed Witten several times in a game yet we expect Wilcox not to be beaten by these way more athletic TEs? It's almost like people don't pay attention to the play of the other safeties in this league.

I like the player and what he brings to the table and just hope he can come along fast enough where he's playing at the level of his ability in the last 4-6 games.

I do respect our football conversations. It's nice to be able to have film-informed discussions instead of spouting off ignorant, yet staunch opinions.

 

[Aliencowboy]

Yes, he gave up a huge play on the out and up others have pointed out. Has he had any impact plays? He fumbled the gift Rolando gave him. Any big hits? Forced fumbles? Sacks? Interceptions? A big flat no- Averaging 3 tackles a game. He is no young budding star! Give up yr man-crush already. It's getting pathetic. Consider yourself Chachicized
\

-was on my phone. Glad you caught that Xwalker.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yes, he gave up a huge play on the out and up others have pointed out. Has he had any impact plays? He fumbled the gift Rolando gave him. Any big hits? Forced fumbles? Sacks? Interceptions? A big flat no- Averaging 3 tackles a game. He is no young budding star! Give up yr man-crush already. It's getting pathetic. Consider yourself Chachicized
\

-was on my phone. Glad you caught that Xwalker.

If he was the under coverage in cover 3 then he was supposed to flash the out like that.

I am not certain that is the case but without knowing the call it's not certain. He laid out Stacey twice vs the Rams and had other nice tackles versus the Saints. Just because you didn't see doesn't mean he didn't do it. Most of his tackles are of the open field variety as on the gang tackling he backs up the pile as a S as opposed to jumping into the scrum. That was how he picked up the fumble so easily.

 

[Aliencowboy]

If he was the under coverage in cover 3 then he was supposed to flash the out like that.

I am not certain that is the case but without knowing the call it's not certain. He laid out Stacey twice vs the Rams and had other nice tackles versus the Saints. Just because you didn't see doesn't mean he didn't do it. Most of his tackles are of the open field variety as on the gang tackling he backs up the pile as a S as opposed to jumping into the scrum. That was how he picked up the fumble so easily.

Big "IF". What else has he done in 4 games? NADA. He's a band-aid.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Big "IF". What else has he done in 4 games? NADA. He's a band-aid.

That works both ways. It looks like cover 3 to me with the corner taking the over the top coverage.

He has made some key third down stops and the fumble recovery. Against the Titans he forced Locker to try to fit a throw with his man blanketed and helped Church get his pick when it sailed a bit.

I agree i would like to see more plays and there are more examples of him being slow to react but he is not a liability out there. I think it wise to be patient and allow the young guys to develop.