With Jenkins gone and F. Jones questionable return

[TheMarathonContinues]

No.

If you get good drafted players and develop them and you like them and decide you are going to later extend them or sign them to another contract...You would not both Go and spend big on Carr and also draft another CB in the draft. Chances are you probably could have signed Jenkins to a smaller contract than car as he would have not hit the open market as they probably would have already resigned him before he did.

Also you would not have to worry about going in this draft to get another RB because the one you drafted in the first round would be a good player. Part of the problem with drafting Felix is the idea that they drafted him to be a backup/change of pace back instead of drafting a starter (even with Barber in the mix).

You try to get a back this year that can be a starter not just a change of back pace that way when Murray goes down (as he probably will) you don't have to worry about a change of pace backup who already has a history of injuries trying to fill in.

Trying to playoff that draft as it would or has no impact on this coming season is not going to convince too many people or pull too many people to your side of thinking because it is not really sound.

But the 2009 draft should have no effect on this upcoming season if you continued to draft well in 2010-2012 like we believe we did. 2009 draft class was weak for most teams. Who from that 2009 draft class is on the Ravens championship squad? Who from that class is on the 49ers? The Seahawks?

Teams have bad drafts. I don't know where this misconception is coming from but teams miss. You can't keep doing that though and the Cowboys have moved on from the draft and I would think fans would too. There's nothing you can do about 2009 other than learn from that mistake. Never trade your 1st round pick unless you get one in return.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Felix, though, I'm not so sure he was misused. He showed huge flashes early with breaking those one-cut plays outside. Teams adjusted, he got hurt, then he added weight and was elevated to the starting lineup and looked to have lost some of his burst. From there, he's never looked like the same player, to me. He looked really pedestrian for the first half of the season last year coming back from his injury. He eventually rounded into decent shape, but was never that big play guy he used to be. Right now, I think he's a rotation player, at best, on a team that doesn't have better options.

I think you're making my point.

He should have never been moved to a starter role and should have never been required to beef up.

He was probably like a Brian Westbrook when Westbrook wasn't the starter type.

My big concern isn't the scouting or when Jerry and Co. pick talent. It's more about Jerry not learning from certain mistakes.

We tried to trade draft picks for Joey Galloway and he goes right back to it with Roy Williams. Both ended up terribly for the team.

We drafted Anthony Fasano who could play in this league, but there was no need to draft a TE in the 2nd round...particularly if he can't line up out wide. Then we do the same thing with Bennett. Hopefully, I think they finally learned that lesson by drafting Hanna in the 6th round....and a guy that can line up out wide if needed.

We have continually had issues with motivating talented players who are a bit lackadasical in nature. So we draft Jenkins and Bennett.

And the one thing that worked brilliantly for Jerry....stockpiling picks in order to acquire more talent and to keep a fresh number of hungry players to keep the veterans motivated....we don't do anymore.

To me, this draft will tell a lot about where this team is headed with Garrett. He seems much bigger in finding players with good work ethic and not making some of the same mistakes we've made in the past (drafting a TE in the 2nd round). But if he changes course in this draft, then I think that's just a sign of things to come. Conversely, if he sticks with his drafting philosophy and starts to stockpile picks, I think we are headed in the right direction.






YR

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

I think you're making my point.

He should have never been moved to a starter role and should have never been required to beef up.

He was probably like a Brian Westbrook when Westbrook wasn't the starter type.

My big concern isn't the scouting or when Jerry and Co. pick talent. It's more about Jerry not learning from certain mistakes.

We tried to trade draft picks for Joey Galloway and he goes right back to it with Roy Williams. Both ended up terribly for the team.

We drafted Anthony Fasano who could play in this league, but there was no need to draft a TE in the 2nd round...particularly if he can't line up out wide. Then we do the same thing with Bennett. Hopefully, I think they finally learned that lesson by drafting Hanna in the 6th round....and a guy that can line up out wide if needed.

We have continually had issues with motivating talented players who are a bit lackadasical in nature. So we draft Jenkins and Bennett.

And the one thing that worked brilliantly for Jerry....stockpiling picks in order to acquire more talent and to keep a fresh number of hungry players to keep the veterans motivated....we don't do anymore.

To me, this draft will tell a lot about where this team is headed with Garrett. He seems much bigger in finding players with good work ethic and not making some of the same mistakes we've made in the past (drafting a TE in the 2nd round). But if he changes course in this draft, then I think that's just a sign of things to come. Conversely, if he sticks with his drafting philosophy and starts to stockpile picks, I think we are headed in the right direction.






YR

Martellus wasn't a bad draft pick. He may have not end up being "Jason Witten" but when Martellus was on this team we had a very good solid running game and I know people hate hearing about him being just a "blocker" but he was very effective in that role. And even right now Martellus is better than Fasano. Fasano is the one who should've never been drafted IMO.

 

[Zekeats]

It's a very large reason why this team is playing catchup right now.
They should have 5-6 players minumim from those two drafts that are big contributors by now.

In the past...they are moving on now.

You would think so.......but don't forget, we did at least get Roy Williams for our 1st and 3rd in 09.:bang2:

 

[AMERICAS_FAN]

Martellus wasn't a bad draft pick. He may have not end up being "Jason Witten" but when Martellus was on this team we had a very good solid running game and I know people hate hearing about him being just a "blocker" but he was very effective in that role. And even right now Martellus is better than Fasano. Fasano is the one who should've never been drafted IMO.

But YR is making a point about Jerry's past pattern of making repeated mistakes when drafting - mainly by reaching for players to fill a need instead of just letting the board come to him and taking the best players on the board.

With respect to Bennett, the Cwoboys had the chance 2 years later to trade him to Cincinatti for a 2nd round pick. Jerry passed; instead he was hell bent on keeping the player just to make the bad pick work out, hoping Bennett would be a late bloomer, even though early signs of his development (really, lack thereof) indicated he would not bloom - which he didn't.

Trying to force Felix Jones to become a starter - based on where he was drafted, not his skill set - is another example of Jerry Jones drafting a player wrongly and then trying to force it into becoming the "right" pick.

That never works for players you reach for, and if yo don't beleive me then I've got a player by the name of Quincy Carter to sell you at top dollar to play starting QB.

 

[xwalker]

No.

If you get good drafted players and develop them and you like them and decide you are going to later extend them or sign them to another contract...You would not both Go and spend big on Carr and also draft another CB in the draft. Chances are you probably could have signed Jenkins to a smaller contract than car as he would have not hit the open market as they probably would have already resigned him before he did.

They signed Carr before they drafted Claiborne. Carr was the replacement for Jenkins. They were not magically going to sign Jenkins to a low contract. He is a player that thought very highly of himself. He would have cost as much as Carr if he had proven to be a top CB.

Also you would not have to worry about going in this draft to get another RB because the one you drafted in the first round would be a good player. Part of the problem with drafting Felix is the idea that they drafted him to be a backup/change of pace back instead of drafting a starter (even with Barber in the mix).

You try to get a back this year that can be a starter not just a change of back pace that way when Murray goes down (as he probably will) you don't have to worry about a change of pace backup who already has a history of injuries trying to fill in.

If Felix had been really good, then he would be an expensive Free Agent. With Murray on the team the Cowboys would have had to decide if they wanted to spend big money to retain Felix. It is doubtful that they could have retained both Spencer and a top level Free Agent Running Back this season.

I'll go back to the Andy Levitre example. The Bills drafted him and received good value during the 4 years that he was with the team; however, they couldn't afford to re-sign him. They had to look at him just like they would look at any other Free Agent and decide how much they were willing to pay. Drafting him resulted in Zero benefit to the Bills in 2013.

Trying to playoff that draft as it would or has no impact on this coming season is not going to convince too many people or pull too many people to your side of thinking because it is not really sound.

I'm not certain that you understand the concept.

It would be a different story is the Cowboys had missed on a #1 overall draft pick. A player like Andrew Luck has value beyond his initial contract because you can't replace him with a Free Agent.

 

[xwalker]

It's a very large reason why this team is playing catchup right now.
They should have 5-6 players minumim from those two drafts that are big contributors by now.

In the past...they are moving on now.

They could have signed Andy Levitre as a Free Agent in 2013.

If they had drafted him in 2009 it would have Zero benefit to them in 2013. His value to the team as a draft pick would have been in years 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012.

 

[SMCowboy]

No.

If you get good drafted players and develop them and you like them and decide you are going to later extend them or sign them to another contract...You would not both Go and spend big on Carr and also draft another CB in the draft. Chances are you probably could have signed Jenkins to a smaller contract than car as he would have not hit the open market as they probably would have already resigned him before he did.

You obviously do not have a very good memory of last year. We did like Jenkins, and always did and still do like Jenkins. The reason we drafted Morris Claiborne was because Jenkins thought he was the same caliber of player as Carr was, and should be paid like that. And we knew we would not pay him that much money, and when we had a chance to move up to draft one of the top CB's to come out of college in a long time, we took it.

Also you would not have to worry about going in this draft to get another RB because the one you drafted in the first round would be a good player. Part of the problem with drafting Felix is the idea that they drafted him to be a backup/change of pace back instead of drafting a starter (even with Barber in the mix).

You try to get a back this year that can be a starter not just a change of back pace that way when Murray goes down (as he probably will) you don't have to worry about a change of pace backup who already has a history of injuries trying to fill in.

Trying to playoff that draft as it would or has no impact on this coming season is not going to convince too many people or pull too many people to your side of thinking because it is not really sound.

If Felix Jones had lived up to his billing as a star RB, how do you recommend we fit him into our current cap scenario? Do you not think a star RB, would want more than $4 million dollars a year? Guess what, even if Felix Jones had turned into another Chris Johnson most likely we still wouldn't have resigned him, given that we have Murry on our roster. We don't have the salary cap space to keep everyone.

The truth is EVER NFL team has to let guys walk that they drafted that they would like to keep. But, they have to make choices if they can afford to pay them what they are going to get in the FA market. We made that decision last year, that we where not going to pay Jenkins what he thought he was worth, so we drafted Claiborne.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

EDIT: Should read "Felix"

That would leave a grand total of ZERO players left on this roster from the 2008 & 2009 drafts. Right at the point a player should be in the prime of their career, not one is doing it here.

That's basically the equivalent of a 2-year "death penalty" for a college program. What a waste.

zero for 2008 and 2009. two sucky drafts and that puts us in the bid that we are. imagine if we would have drafted some OL men!!!

 

[SMCowboy]

zero for 2008 and 2009. two sucky drafts and that puts us in the bid that we are. imagine if we would have drafted some OL men!!!

That is factually WRONG!!!! We do still have someone from the 2008 draft Class, remember Orlando Scandrick?

 

[SMCowboy]

imagine if we would have drafted some OL men!!!

Yeah, image if we had draft guys like:
Jake Long
Gosder Cherilus
Chilo Rachal
Mike Pollak
John Greco
Chad Rinehart
Oniel Cousins
Carl Nicks
Barry Richardson
Kory Lichtensteiger

None of these guys are still on the team that drafted them, even though they are still playing.

Basically image if we had drafted anyone but:
Duane Brown
Sam Baker
Branden Albert
Ryan Clady
Nate Garner
Josh Sitton
John Sullivan

And only Duane Brown, Nate Garner, Josh Sitton and John Sullivan where still on the board when we drafted. And had we actually drafted Duane Brown this whole board would have gone completely off on Jerry Jones for reaching, because according to all "experts" Duane Brown should have been a second round pick.

 

[xwalker]

zero for 2008 and 2009. two sucky drafts and that puts us in the bid that we are. imagine if we would have drafted some OL men!!!

They could have signed Andy Levitre as a Free Agent in 2013.

If they had drafted him in 2009 it would have Zero benefit to them in 2013. His value to the team as a draft pick would have been in years 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012.

Those drafts are not preventing them from having some quality "OL men".

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

You obviously do not have a very good memory of last year. We did like Jenkins, and always did and still do like Jenkins. The reason we drafted Morris Claiborne was because Jenkins thought he was the same caliber of player as Carr was, and should be paid like that. And we knew we would not pay him that much money, and when we had a chance to move up to draft one of the top CB's to come out of college in a long time, we took it.



If Felix Jones had lived up to his billing as a star RB, how do you recommend we fit him into our current cap scenario? Do you not think a star RB, would want more than $4 million dollars a year? Guess what, even if Felix Jones had turned into another Chris Johnson most likely we still wouldn't have resigned him, given that we have Murry on our roster. We don't have the salary cap space to keep everyone.

The truth is EVER NFL team has to let guys walk that they drafted that they would like to keep. But, they have to make choices if they can afford to pay them what they are going to get in the FA market. We made that decision last year, that we where not going to pay Jenkins what he thought he was worth, so we drafted Claiborne.

Here is a harsh truth that some just don't want to acknowledge and make excuses for it.

Due to terrible drafts for a period of time this team is hurting. Not only did we not hit on players like O linemen...it also caused this team to over spend for other Olinemen in FA that did not pan out as well. So we both failed in the draft with quality olinemen and FA in olinemen.

This lack of draft success over the last few years also causes us to overpay some of the few players that actually were decent or great in a few cases. But it causes us to overspend in FA...well we pay market value at the time but at the end of the day it hurts us more in cap money.

You draft to get a young group of good players at a better cap and contract value. You also draft some good players that you hope will eventually be starters or take over for starters who are leaving the team.

The last drafts have hurt this team a great deal and EVERYBODY should see that.

Thankfully that trend seems to have turned around somewhat in the last couple of drafts and I hope it continues. I don't know if that is the scouts doing a better job or Maybe the HC having a louder voice or maybe louder is wrong...a more influential voice in the war room during drafts.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Those drafts are not preventing them from having some quality "OL men".

Those drafts do not prevent them from drafting better offensive linemen...but than again they did not draft good offensive linemen either so does it not preventing them from getting them make much of a difference.

 

[AMERICAS_FAN]

Those drafts are not preventing them from having some quality "OL men".

I daisagree because that's the first domino to fall.

What's led to the OL woes includes:

A. not drafting qulaity OL that can outlive their first contracts by getting resigned with second contracts
B. re-signong subpar OL, like Doug Free, to overvalued second contracts (as if that will make up for point "A.")
C. signing OL in free agency in hopes that this ill make up for mistakes related to points "A." and "B.", but then signing inadequate ones at that.

 

[SMCowboy]

Here is a harsh truth that some just don't want to acknowledge and make excuses for it.

Due to terrible drafts for a period of time this team is hurting. Not only did we not hit on players like O linemen...it also caused this team to over spend for other Olinemen in FA that did not pan out as well. So we both failed in the draft with quality olinemen and FA in olinemen.

You are partially correct, the terrible drafts for a long time absolutely did hurt the team. But the biggest recent cause was not as much horrible drafts, as except for the 2009 drafts all the recent drafts since atleast 2004 have been solid a worst. The biggest recent cause was the OL that we build of Flozell Adams, Leonard Davis, Andre Gurode, Kyle Kosier and Marc Columbo all got old at the same time.

This lack of draft success over the last few years also causes us to overpay some of the few players that actually were decent or great in a few cases. But it causes us to overspend in FA...well we pay market value at the time but at the end of the day it hurts us more in cap money.

No doubt about it, before Bill Parcells came in, our drafts where horrible. And we had some good drafts (see 2005) as well as some really bad drafts (see 2004) under Bill Parcells. But since 2005 we have had one bad draft, the 2009 draft. You can not keep blaming drafts that where 8 and 10 years ago for our current lack of success.

You draft to get a young group of good players at a better cap and contract value. You also draft some good players that you hope will eventually be starters or take over for starters who are leaving the team.

The last drafts have hurt this team a great deal and EVERYBODY should see that.

Other than 2009 explain to me how any of the drafts since the 2004 draft, have hurt the team. All the drafts (2005 - 2012 except for the 2009 draft) all had atleast 3 players that played significant minutes for us while they where on the team, and where good enough to get a contract with another team after leaving Dallas.

 

[SMCowboy]

I daisagree because that's the first domino to fall.

What's led to the OL woes includes:

A. not drafting qulaity OL that can outlive their first contracts by getting resigned with second contracts
B. re-signong subpar OL, like Doug Free, to overvalued second contracts (as if that will make up for point "A.")
C. signing OL in free agency in hopes that this ill make up for mistakes related to points "A." and "B.", but then signing inadequate ones at that.

Actually, you are wrong on just about everything.

What led to the current OL woes, was that the OL that we had built, and we our foundation for several years of: Flozell Adams, Leonard Adams, Andre Gurode, Kyle Kosier, and Marc Columbo all got old at the same time. That OL was built with two Draft Picks of our own (Adams and Gurode), one big FA signing (Davis), a cheap FA pickup (Kosier), and one guy we pickup up off the scrap heap and developed (Columbo). The truth is not to many teams can afford to replace and entire offensive line in 2 years without seeing a major drop in production.

As to point B, we actually paid Free below market value compared to what other OT's coming off good years where signing for. Unfortunately for us, after signing Free to his big contract his play started to decline and decline quickly. But he absolutely was NOT overpaid when he signed his contract.

 

[Verdict]

The 2009 draft has minimal impact on the 2013 season. The 2009 draft primarily affected the 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012 seasons.

The reason is that draft picks are on 4 year contracts. If Mike Jenkins had been great, then he would have cost the same as Brandon Carr. There is no discount to the team just because it drafted that player. In 2013 Dallas has Carr instead of Jenkins. It makes no difference that Carr was drafted by KC and Jenkins by Dallas.

Buffalo drafted Andy Levitre in 2009 and Dallas didn't. In 2013 he will have the same value for both teams, Zero, because he signed with the Titans as a Free Agent.

This is largely true. One potential exception to this is that if a team drafts a player and he turns out to be a stud, the team has a slight advantage in that a slight hometown discount might be obtained by signing a guy a year early and you can avoid an outright bidding war on a player before he actually hits free agency. But there is no doubt that the main theme of your argument is sound.

 

[Verdict]

No.

If you get good drafted players and develop them and you like them and decide you are going to later extend them or sign them to another contract...You would not both Go and spend big on Carr and also draft another CB in the draft. Chances are you probably could have signed Jenkins to a smaller contract than car as he would have not hit the open market as they probably would have already resigned him before he did.

Also you would not have to worry about going in this draft to get another RB because the one you drafted in the first round would be a good player. Part of the problem with drafting Felix is the idea that they drafted him to be a backup/change of pace back instead of drafting a starter (even with Barber in the mix).

You try to get a back this year that can be a starter not just a change of back pace that way when Murray goes down (as he probably will) you don't have to worry about a change of pace backup who already has a history of injuries trying to fill in.

Trying to playoff that draft as it would or has no impact on this coming season is not going to convince too many people or pull too many people to your side of thinking because it is not really sound.

I don't like our draft misses anymore than any of the rest of you. While I agree that it is "possible" that our team might look a lot different if we had drafted well it really wouldn't help us all that much after the initial contract other than we might have been able to extend them when they were on the rise. But realistically, we don't seem to do that as often as we should and when we do it doesn't seem to turn out all that well for us.

It is my opinion that our draft misses in 2009 do not affect us nearly as much as overpaying to keep players on the roster. We way overpaid for Barber and that cost us the ability to bring additional free agents to the team. The same could be said for Austin and Ratliff, although they were not insanely absurd contracts at the time they resigned them. But they are definitely keeping us from being players in free agency at this point.

 

[DFWJC]

EDIT: Should read "Felix"

That would leave a grand total of ZERO players left on this roster from the 2008 & 2009 drafts. Right at the point a player should be in the prime of their career, not one is doing it here.

That's basically the equivalent of a 2-year "death penalty" for a college program. What a waste.

Scandrick says "don't forget about me"