You dont pay a player until you have to

Risen Star

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When you have a talent evaluator at the top you can really help yourself with early extensions. It's imperative that you're right though.

The Cowboys can't afford to make those calls. There's nobody in the room qualified to.
 

dragon_mikal

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I would really think twice about handing a WR that kind of money. They just aren't that essential, and that includes Calvin Johnson and Dez Bryant.

These are the kind of hard decisions that you have to make because you just can't retain everyone without paying some kind of penalty down the road.

You're utterly wrong. Dez Bryant is a game changer at a very important position. Just like an elite DLman frees up others on the defensive line to make plays by forcing double teams, an elite WR like Dez Bryant, Julio Jones or Calvin Johnson opens up the field for other offensive players on their team.

You don't let a game changer go unless you have to. Dez Bryant is essential to this offense...he forces teams to respect your passing game and takes two or even three defenders out of the equation.
 

jterrell

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In the world of the NFL salary cap era.
I hope Jerry learned his lesson extending Rat and Barber when they still had years left on their contracts.
You especialy don't do it when Jay was close to 30 and Barber played the kind of physical running back style that has a very short shelf life in the NFL.

The only smart extentions when a player has years left on their contract is at QB, if you have a really good one like Jerry did with Romo.

He extended Ratliff and Witten previously and saved millions.

Fans really should try to be less simple.

Some extensions are going to work and some will fail.
Some guys will leave and play tremendous elsewhere whole others will leave and flame out.
That is unavoidable.

All the worst contract ever nonsense is mediot-driven gibberish.

Ratliff was a dominating force and the best NT in football when extended.
Then he got hurt and wasn't.
Not much else matters.
 

jterrell

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But he wasn't on a one year deal, he still had 2 years remaining on his last (team friendly extension). That's part of the OP's point; you don't always have to rush into big extensions for some of these older guys when there's no pressing need to.

Please stop repeating the mantra of people with drool on their chin.
Jay Ratliff wasn't playing out the final two years of that contract.
Jerry has made it clear how often Jay and his mgmt let him know he was outproducing that deal by far.

The 10m SB he gave Ratliff isn't even top 10 anymore. He handed Witten 11M a couple weeks later.
Was that also a stupid resigning???
 

john van brocklin

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Me and you seem to be on the same page about Sean Lee and Dez Bryant. For some reason, it seems like you can criticize every player on this team except for Sean Lee. I understand that fans love him because he brings great leadership, a great mindset, and that old-school lunch-pail tenacity. But he hasn't done nearly enough to deserve all the praise. He was beginning to show signs of being a Pro Bowl caliber player (before injuries derail his chance to shine every single season) but he never really reached that level. He's not as proven around the league as Dallas fans seem to think. He's also about to be 28. Dez, on the other hand, is already at a Pro Bowl level, is getting better every year, is only 24, and has never had injury problems. I agree with the OP's point of this thread that you don't pay a player until you have to, but I also agree that are some guys you pay no matter what. If you have a Tom Brady/Peyton Manning/Aaron Rodgers, you pay him no matter what. Same goes for if you have a Calvin Johnson/Adrian Peterson. Same goes for a Demarcus Ware/Jarred Allen when they were younger. And I would say same goes for a Dez Bryant at 24 years old. But I would NOT say same goes for an unproven Sean Lee who's about to be 28.

Ding , Ding , Ding !!!

Give that poster a prize !!!
 

john van brocklin

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But he wasn't on a one year deal, he still had 2 years remaining on his last (team friendly extension). That's part of the OP's point; you don't always have to rush into big extensions for some of these older guys when there's no pressing need to.

DITTO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

john van brocklin

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He extended Ratliff and Witten previously and saved millions.

Fans really should try to be less simple.

Some extensions are going to work and some will fail.
Some guys will leave and play tremendous elsewhere whole others will leave and flame out.
That is unavoidable.

All the worst contract ever nonsense is mediot-driven gibberish.

Ratliff was a dominating force and the best NT in football when extended.
Then he got hurt and wasn't.
Not much else matters.

Not much else matters ???
Are you serious ???
The Cap hit from Rat is gonna be significant...
That is going to cost us the opportunity to add talent to this team the next couple of years.
That is very significant, sir !
 

Section446

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I'm fine with paying guys before their contracts are up. What I'm against is paying age. There's no way you give a 30+ year old player an extension greater than 1-3 years.
 

Deep_Freeze

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I'm fine with paying guys before their contracts are up. What I'm against is paying age. There's no way you give a 30+ year old player an extension greater than 1-3 years.

I would give a 30 year old QB or maybe OL a 3-4 year deal, but those are the only 2 I would consider doing it with. Its a young mans game, and at other positions losing athleticism with age is too significant no matter how much experience you have. Truly elite talents like Ware are exceptions, not the rule.
 

Section446

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I would give a 30 year old QB or maybe OL a 3-4 year deal, but those are the only 2 I would consider doing it with. Its a young mans game, and at other positions losing athleticism with age is too significant no matter how much experience you have. Truly elite talents like Ware are exceptions, not the rule.

I meant to qualify my post with "except QB", thanks for catching it.
 

JoeyBoy718

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I would give a 30 year old QB or maybe OL a 3-4 year deal, but those are the only 2 I would consider doing it with. Its a young mans game, and at other positions losing athleticism with age is too significant no matter how much experience you have. Truly elite talents like Ware are exceptions, not the rule.

And even Ware has not been the same the past 2 years. Look at guys like Jarred Allen. Him and Ware were the most consistent pass rushers of this generation, and even they wore down. Even the great Adrian Peterson probably only has a few years left. Like you said, the only positions where you can still play at an elite-level in your mid 30s are QB and OL. I could also see maybe a skill position or secondary where you don't take as many hits, but even those guys lose speed.
 

Deep_Freeze

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And even Ware has not been the same the past 2 years. Look at guys like Jarred Allen. Him and Ware were the most consistent pass rushers of this generation, and even they wore down. Even the great Adrian Peterson probably only has a few years left. Like you said, the only positions where you can still play at an elite-level in your mid 30s are QB and OL. I could also see maybe a skill position or secondary where you don't take as many hits, but even those guys lose speed.

Yeah, I don't see the skill position or secondary at all though. The loss of athleticism is very pronounced for those positions, and even the very elite show age very quickly. As for old guys, I would stick with QB and OL, bout it unless they were one of the best in the game (elite) in their 20s.
 

SWG9

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You're utterly wrong. Dez Bryant is a game changer at a very important position. Just like an elite DLman frees up others on the defensive line to make plays by forcing double teams, an elite WR like Dez Bryant, Julio Jones or Calvin Johnson opens up the field for other offensive players on their team.

You don't let a game changer go unless you have to. Dez Bryant is essential to this offense...he forces teams to respect your passing game and takes two or even three defenders out of the equation.

No, I'm actually right. New England, Green Bay, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New Orleans, San Francisco, Seattle, the New York Giants; these teams have all competed for or won Superbowls in the last 5-6 years, yet none of them particularly value WR play.

They aren't afraid to let big names walk (Greg Jennings, Mike Wallace, Deion Branch, Wes Welker, Plaxico Burress, etc., etc.) because they know they can find guys for cheap in the draft that can step up (Antonio Brown, Randall Cobb, Torrey Smith, etc.) or find veterans for cheap that have fallen out of favor for one reason or another (Randy Moss, Anquan Boldin, etc., etc.)

Look at the market; there's always someone available in the offseason for cheap, be it a Wes Welker for 12 million over two years or an Anquan Boldin for a sixth round pick.

I'm not debating Bryant's talent, I'm simply pointing out that it's a buyer's market. There's simply no reason to spend that kind of dough on ANY WR.
 

SWG9

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Please stop repeating the mantra of people with drool on their chin.
Jay Ratliff wasn't playing out the final two years of that contract.
Jerry has made it clear how often Jay and his mgmt let him know he was outproducing that deal by far.

The 10m SB he gave Ratliff isn't even top 10 anymore. He handed Witten 11M a couple weeks later.
Was that also a stupid resigning???

He didn't want to play, therefore, he automatically gets a rich extension??!! And you're saying I've got drool on my chin?

There are about 12-15 players in the league that are good enough to warrant that kind of treatment. Jay Ratliff is not, never has been, and never will be one of them.
 

jterrell

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I'm fine with paying guys before their contracts are up. What I'm against is paying age. There's no way you give a 30+ year old player an extension greater than 1-3 years.

Stupid Patriots and Broncos... what were they thinking??

Service Announcement fans: Contracts aren't always written for 5 years because the player will actually play all 5 of those years.
 

jterrell

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No, I'm actually right. New England, Green Bay, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New Orleans, San Francisco, Seattle, the New York Giants; these teams have all competed for or won Superbowls in the last 5-6 years, yet none of them particularly value WR play.

They aren't afraid to let big names walk (Greg Jennings, Mike Wallace, Deion Branch, Wes Welker, Plaxico Burress, etc., etc.) because they know they can find guys for cheap in the draft that can step up (Antonio Brown, Randall Cobb, Torrey Smith, etc.) or find veterans for cheap that have fallen out of favor for one reason or another (Randy Moss, Anquan Boldin, etc., etc.)

Look at the market; there's always someone available in the offseason for cheap, be it a Wes Welker for 12 million over two years or an Anquan Boldin for a sixth round pick.

I'm not debating Bryant's talent, I'm simply pointing out that it's a buyer's market. There's simply no reason to spend that kind of dough on ANY WR.

Your example is terrible because WHEN those teams own SBs they had excellent WR play.
Since they less lose the guys you mention? Not so much.
Good effort, good game.
 

Deep_Freeze

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No, I'm actually right. New England, Green Bay, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New Orleans, San Francisco, Seattle, the New York Giants; these teams have all competed for or won Superbowls in the last 5-6 years, yet none of them particularly value WR play.

They aren't afraid to let big names walk (Greg Jennings, Mike Wallace, Deion Branch, Wes Welker, Plaxico Burress, etc., etc.) because they know they can find guys for cheap in the draft that can step up (Antonio Brown, Randall Cobb, Torrey Smith, etc.) or find veterans for cheap that have fallen out of favor for one reason or another (Randy Moss, Anquan Boldin, etc., etc.)

Look at the market; there's always someone available in the offseason for cheap, be it a Wes Welker for 12 million over two years or an Anquan Boldin for a sixth round pick.

I'm not debating Bryant's talent, I'm simply pointing out that it's a buyer's market. There's simply no reason to spend that kind of dough on ANY WR.

And yet every team you mention, when they let the play of their WRs go down, they were worse teams. Some of them are still good, but the ones that have those weapon losses are not better for those losses. Green Bay let people walk cause they had a deep core, while NE, Pitt, Bal, and SF have seen their season get worse without those playmakers. The Giants have one of the better WR corps in the league, and Seattle, well they dealt for a big time one in Harvin.

WRs are need in this passing league, and no matter how much you try to belittle the position by saying you can get one from anywhere, bet Big Ben, Brady, Flaco, and Kaep (on those teams you list) would disagree cause their seasons have been majorly affected in a negative way cause of lack of weapons.
 

dragon_mikal

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No, I'm actually right. New England, Green Bay, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New Orleans, San Francisco, Seattle, the New York Giants; these teams have all competed for or won Superbowls in the last 5-6 years, yet none of them particularly value WR play.

They aren't afraid to let big names walk (Greg Jennings, Mike Wallace, Deion Branch, Wes Welker, Plaxico Burress, etc., etc.) because they know they can find guys for cheap in the draft that can step up (Antonio Brown, Randall Cobb, Torrey Smith, etc.) or find veterans for cheap that have fallen out of favor for one reason or another (Randy Moss, Anquan Boldin, etc., etc.)

Look at the market; there's always someone available in the offseason for cheap, be it a Wes Welker for 12 million over two years or an Anquan Boldin for a sixth round pick.

I'm not debating Bryant's talent, I'm simply pointing out that it's a buyer's market. There's simply no reason to spend that kind of dough on ANY WR.

Dez Bryant is better than every WR you just mentioned except for Moss in his prime. He is top 3 at his position and may be #1 when this season is over. He is a player you can build an offense around.

His type of talent doesn't come around too often.

A fan of this team should have learned this lesson in '98. Our GM sure did.
 

jterrell

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He didn't want to play, therefore, he automatically gets a rich extension??!! And you're saying I've got drool on my chin?

There are about 12-15 players in the league that are good enough to warrant that kind of treatment. Jay Ratliff is not, never has been, and never will be one of them.

When Emmitt held out should we have not extended him as well?
Ratliff was in an elite class of players when he was extended.
He was widely accepted as the toughest guy on this team and he was one of 22 All Pro 1st teamers in all football.
It cost Jerry 2m that season and the next to do so.

Just because it turned out poorly doesn't mean it was nearly so foolish as it is portrayed by simpletons now.

Being from the deep south I am more than used to people who keep repeating point A while ignoring that B and C are very real as part of the context.

The biggest Jay Ratliff contract problem is the restructure this year. We kept pushing his money off until there's no where to push it.
That's why the cap hit is enormous next season.
Handing him an extra 10m wasn't even close to a deal breaker if spread over 4 years as it should have been.
 

SWG9

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And yet every team you mention, when they let the play of their WRs go down, they were worse teams. Some of them are still good, but the ones that have those weapon losses are not better for those losses. Green Bay let people walk cause they had a deep core, while NE, Pitt, Bal, and SF have seen their season get worse without those playmakers. The Giants have one of the better WR corps in the league, and Seattle, well they dealt for a big time one in Harvin.

WRs are need in this passing league, and no matter how much you try to belittle the position by saying you can get one from anywhere, bet Big Ben, Brady, Flaco, and Kaep (on those teams you list) would disagree cause their seasons have been majorly affected in a negative way cause of lack of weapons.

I'm not advocating signing bad WR's. I'm simply pointing out that you don't need to spend a ton (be in salary cap dollars or draft picks) to get a solid group of WR's capable of winning a SB together.

The Pats keep rolling along year after year after year without any true superstar WR's (with the obvious exception of the Moss years, and they picked him up for a fourth round pick). I don't even see how that can be debated. The Saints essentially have Colston (who isn't even that great) and a revolving door. Baltimore and Pittsburgh just keep letting guys walking and drafting their replacements without any real drop off.

Look at Denver; they drafed Decker in round 3, Thomas in round 2, and signed Welker for cheap this offseason. Sometimes it can be that easy.

As long as you have an elite QB and guys that can get open, history indicates that you're going to be fine.
 
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