You want a 6-6 Hybrid 3-4 OLB?????????

5mics

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Nors said:
Seen Kiwi play more than once? i HAVE, Guy has zero lateral movement or agility. He's a 4-3 DE at best in NFL.
I'll have to wait on the reports from the upcoming workouts since I've not seen him play very often. That said, I just find it hard to already pigeon-hole this kid into one and only one position this early in the evaluation stage.....
 

ghst187

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Nors said:
Seen Kiwi play more than once? i HAVE, Guy has zero lateral movement or agility. He's a 4-3 DE at best in NFL.

I wouldn't say ZERO. He's pretty good, he also got that cheap shot to the knee that bothered him (esp his lateral movement) the rest of the season.
But I agree that Kiwi is probably better suited to play a 4-3 DE.

I like Lawson because people say the same things about him that they said about J Peppers years ago. He's such a phenomenal athlete that you just want the guy on the field. He also has similar size. It'd be like having 2 Demarcus Ware's. Another guy that can get to the QB like Ware and we might actually start generating a consistent pass rush without blitzing (not that we got to the QB when we blitzed). Of course, this is if Zimmer doesn't coach passrushing completely out of Ware and Lawson. :D
 

rexrobinson

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I really want the Cowboys to go after Manny Lawson, he is the DeMarcus Ware of 2006.

It will be humiliating for opposing QBs if they have to constantly worry about these two.
 

Nors

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Lawson came in at 6-5 240 - lets see how he practices this week
 

shnagy

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InmanRoshi said:
Good thing he's not 1" taller, then he totally wouldn't even be able to play the position.:rolleyes:
Exactly what i was thinking. :lmao:
 

Nors

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Scout.com also stated tonight Furgoson schooled Kiwi.


Here is how Kiwi is backed in a 4-3 corner. 2 years ago there was Ed Too Tall talk, now there is 6-5 262 talk. It was common knowledge here in Boston Kiwi did not declare last year as he wasn't strong enough. That concern is still there.

For those ready to convert Kiwi to 3-4 OLB here is the crux of that dilemma. He has limited lateral or agility - he goes North South, thats his gig. You darft him in a 3-4 setting he can't play 3-4 DE at 6-5 260. IOn that we can agree? So a team is asked to spend a #1 on an unproven OLB candidate? Thats boom bust on Kiwi.

Dallas? We have Ware - not taking that risk on Kiwi
San Diego - Set with Merriman - other needs
Pitt - doubt it
Cleveland - Crennel is wired at BC - can't bust this that high
Pats - OLB not a need - ILB is

3-4 leaning teams????

Miami, Giants, Jets - Kiwi is in trouble getting a 3-4 draft in Round 1. He will go if in Round 1 to a 4-3 DE gig.
 

Clove

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Manny Lawson 6'5 (245) *
This is a player at the defensive end position that can be dominate at both levels of play
As a collegiate player I feel he is a dominate presence on the field of play, he posses excellent athleticness, determination and passion for the game that others lack and gives him the extra juice to succeed
This is an athlete while in high school that qualified for (4) different events in track for his state of North Carolina, and reportedly currently runs a 4.43 in the 40 yard dash, that gives you an idea of the type of athlete and skill level we are talking about here
He has the rare combination of size, speed, mobility, quickness and burst to be a dominant player on the field, to me he out performs his teammate Mario Williams on the field where it counts, and rather than the publications and the media
He gets upfield with such a quick burst and instinctive anticipation off the snap, that he brings such pressure to his opposing blocker, and once he does get by the opposing blocker, he has the speed to run down any quarterback I can think of
He plays the game with such passion and will to win on every snap of the ball, he also shows the athletic ability to track down and make the plays necessary running down runners from the backfield, he is consistently in an attack mode on the field, and stout at the point of attack anywhere on the field, he is quite simply a difference maker!
With his lack of weight he is somewhat of a liability against the run, that is why I proposed the idea of making him a linebacker where he does not have to take on blockers consistently 50+ pounds heavier than him, which in turn wears him down and makes his ability to work in open space and use his athleticness to his advantage limited
If he were to be moved to the linebacker spot he would be freed up to do the things he can do best more often and more creatively, he can be used as a combo blitzing linebacker/ rush end in known passing situations, and he can be utilized in the defense in creative ways by the coaches and coordinator
I feel he posses the agility in the hips, mobility, quickness and lateral movement where his transition from the defensive end spot to the linebacker position would be a smooth one, his upside to me is limitless!

Read up on each of these guys, we will snag one of them. And I saw Mincey play the other night, and he was an absolute MONSTER. 3 sacks - all types of pressures.

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/2006_profiles.cfm?pos=DE

Manny Lawson 6'5 (245) *
Kamerion Wimbley 6'4 (255) 4/5
Ryan Neill 6'3 (265)
Jeremy Mincey 6'4 (258)
Devan Long 6'4 (265) 4/5
Parys Haralson 6'3 (250) 3/4
Jermial Ashley 6'5 (250)
Mark Anderson 6'5 (253)
 

shnagy

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Nors said:
Scout.com also stated tonight Furgoson schooled Kiwi.


Here is how Kiwi is backed in a 4-3 corner. 2 years ago there was Ed Too Tall talk, now there is 6-5 262 talk. It was common knowledge here in Boston Kiwi did not declare last year as he wasn't strong enough. That concern is still there.

For those ready to convert Kiwi to 3-4 OLB here is the crux of that dilemma. He has limited lateral or agility - he goes North South, thats his gig. You darft him in a 3-4 setting he can't play 3-4 DE at 6-5 260. IOn that we can agree? So a team is asked to spend a #1 on an unproven OLB candidate? Thats boom bust on Kiwi.

Dallas? We have Ware - not taking that risk on Kiwi
San Diego - Set with Merriman - other needs
Pitt - doubt it
Cleveland - Crennel is wired at BC - can't bust this that high
Pats - OLB not a need - ILB is

3-4 leaning teams????

Miami, Giants, Jets - Kiwi is in trouble getting a 3-4 draft in Round 1. He will go if in Round 1 to a 4-3 DE gig.
Alright Mr. Ireland, I will take your word on it. J/K But i guess we both have the same chance of being right.
 

InmanRoshi

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Nors said:
Seen Kiwi play more than once? i HAVE, Guy has zero lateral movement or agility. He's a 4-3 DE at best in NFL.


And yet he had the best time in the drill that tests lateral movement and agility among the DE's in his group?

20-yard shuttle

Mathias Kiwanuka Boston College 4.13
Manny Lawson NC State 4.18
Rob Ninkovich Purdue 4.18
Jeremy Mincey Florida 4.25
Ryan Lacasse Syracuse 4.30
Mario Williams NC State 4.36

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/9270956

That was the 2nd best time for any DE at the Combine, and the guy who beat him is 6'2" squatty guy.

And for all the grief I got from people saying anyone who knows anything knows that Kiwi can't play 3-4 OLB .... guess who's participating in LB drills tommorrow?
 

dbair1967

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5mics said:
Man oh man, Lawson can make the transition to a 3-4 OLB but Kiwi can't?! ***?! Nors make me laugh sooo hard sometimes.....:lmao:

Actually, Kiwi is the SAME height as Manny.....according to this: http://www.nflfans.com/x/2006/showprospect.php?key=Mathias%20Kiwanuka

Kiwi just doesnt move well enough to be a LB...he's going to have to be a DE

Lawson appears to be pretty fluid and could play in space, which a 3-4 OLB will have to do on downs where they are not rushing the passer...like Ware, he can drop and cover...Kiwi would be lost trying to cover RB's, TE's or even WR's if he had to

David
 

InmanRoshi

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Looks like Kiwi moves fine to me. He had the best shuttle times of any top rated OLB/DE at the combine. Better than Lawson. Better than DeMarcus Ware's last year (4.27). And scouts want him to go through LB drills today. Obviously they are interested in him there.
 

Z-Man

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InmanRoshi said:
Looks like Kiwi moves fine to me. He had the best shuttle times of any top rated OLB/DE at the combine. Better than Lawson. Better than DeMarcus Ware's last year (4.27). And scouts want him to go through LB drills today. Obviously they are interested in him there.
His 40 time wasn't in the same zip code as Lawson's, however, with 40's being so overrated sometimes it will be very interesting to see how Kiwi does in LB drills. Bryan Cox only ran in the 4.8's when he came into the NFL some years ago.
 

InmanRoshi

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Z-Man said:
His 40 time wasn't in the same zip code as Lawson's, however, with 40's being so overrated sometimes it will be very interesting to see how Kiwi does in LB drills. Bryan Cox only ran in the 4.8's when he came into the NFL some years ago.

But it is in line with people who've played very well in the 3-4 in the past. Its pretty much the same as Merriman's last year.

Besides, Lawson's 240 lbs. is too light. That's pretty much what Al Singleton was beefed up to last year. Its one thing to get engulfed by mammoth tackles, its another to get pushed around by tight ends when you have to jam them at the line. Parcells would probably want Lawson to gain another 15 lbs. to get up in the 255-265 range where his OLB's typically play at. In otherwords, Kiwi has the body today of what you hope Lawson's body will be two years in the future. And then what does Lawson test at with 15 more lbs.?

And comparing college production? Forget it. Lawson has about half the career college production of what Kiwi has (really, every DE in the draft does), and Kiwi was the best player on his team and had to fight through constant double teams and chips from TE's and RB's. Everyone who played against NCST focused on Super Mario.
 

VACowboy

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My prob with Kiwi isn't his ability to play in space as much as the fact that he just isn't a very physical player.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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Whomever pointed out that Nors finally gets it with Lawson is absolutly correct. This "I watch many players" stuff is wide of the mark IMO. I have watched Howard play. He's a 43 OLB IMO. Maybe even a SS but not a 34 LB by any means so far as I am concerned. Lawson, on the other hand, is a very nice fit for either probably but he would be coveted in a 34 OLB position.

I'll tell ya what thou, Mario is amazing. That guy is impressive, to say the least.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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VACowboy said:
My prob with Kiwi isn't his ability to play in space as much as the fact that he just isn't a very physical player.


I agree. He has very little pop coming off the line. In drills, I thought he used very poor technique. No leverage at all and his hand placement was high. Of course, there only drills but there designed to display how low a DL plays coming off the ball. How well he slides and sheds blockers. I was not very impressed at all.
 

InmanRoshi

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I don't know how he was in drills. I do know he had 37.5 career sacks, and 57 career TFL's playing against the best competition in the country. That's almost identical to what David Pollack produced in college. I also know that everyone was drooling at the prospect of him coming out in the draft as a junior with last year's 11th pick, but now he suddenly sucks. Paralysis by analysis?
 

junk

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InmanRoshi said:
I don't know how he was in drills. I do know he had 37.5 career sacks, and 57 career TFL's playing against the best competition in the country. That's almost identical to what David Pollack produced in college. I also know that everyone was drooling at the prospect of him coming out in the draft as a junior with last year's 11th pick, but now he suddenly sucks. Paralysis by analysis?

I don't know that he sucks, but there are flags with injury concerns and his Senior Bowl performance.

How many sacks did Dumervil have?

I am sticking by my guns that I don't see Kiwi as a 3-4 OLB. Erasmus James did LB drills last year too.
 

InmanRoshi

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junk said:
I don't know that he sucks, but there are flags with injury concerns and his Senior Bowl performance.

How many sacks did Dumervil have?

I am sticking by my guns that I don't see Kiwi as a 3-4 OLB. Erasmus James did LB drills last year too.

And the Vikes played a lot of 3-4 last year too.
 
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