Zeke, Bosa, or Ramsey. Who would you take

[CalPolyTechnique]

Gimmie a great DE or lockdown CB over RB all day, every day, and twice on Sundays.

 

[kskboys]

Gimmie a great DE or lockdown CB over RB all day, every day, and twice on Sundays.

Possibly. However, if you have a great DLine that consistently disrupts the pocket, then a RB would be a better value.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

Possibly. However, if you have a great DLine that consistently disrupts the pocket, then a RB would be a better value.

And if you have a great offensive line that can allow a guy like Darren McFadden to register a 1,000+ yard season and improve his YPC from 3.4 (w/Raiders) to 4.6 (w/Cowboys) or help Alfred Morris go 550 yards at a 4.8 YPC, then drafting a RB at #4 is not good value.

 

[Doomsday101]

And if you have a great offensive line that can allow a guy like Darren McFadden to register a 1,000+ yard season and improve his YPC from 3.4 (w/Raiders) to 4.6 (w/Cowboys) or help Alfred Morris go 550 yards at a 4.8 YPC, then drafting a RB at #4 is not good value.

None of those backs produced as Zeke did, they are not the same in being difference makers. Zeke will account for a large portion of the offense. Even if we look outside of the Cowboys with Gurley his play and production is a big part of the Rams, without him in the lineup that offense looks nothing like a contender. I will not be little the importance of other position like DE or CB but frankly it is about the production of the player in my view than the position of the player.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

None of those backs produced as Zeke did, they are not the same in being difference makers. Zeke will account for a large portion of the offense. Even if we look outside of the Cowboys with Gurley his play and production is a big part of the Rams, without him in the lineup that offense looks nothing like a contender. I will not be little the importance of other position like DE or CB but frankly it is about the production of the player in my view than the position of the player.

The o-line can make even those middling RBs productive; that's the point. It's been historically demonstrated that you can find talented/productive RBs at later points in the draft (or street FAs) with regularity.

I should add, I argued leading up (and after taking Zeke) to the 2016 Draft that taking Zeke at #4 they instantly made him the 3rd-4th highest paid RB in the league as a rookie. The Jags got a lockdown corner and are only paying him as ~45th highest (I don't where his contract ranks in 2018) paid DB in the league. That's a huge discrepancy in terms of monetary positional value.

 

[Doomsday101]

The o-line can make even those middling RBs productive; that's the point. It's been historically demonstrated that you can find talented/productive RBs at later points in the draft (or street FAs) with regularity.

Not all RB are the same, yes OL is a big help but I can see a major difference in the play of McFadden, Morris and Zeke. I look for production out of high #1 picks be it DE, CB, RB, WR or any position and you can find stud players at all those position even later in the draft. We also see many high draft picks flat out bust regardless of the position they play so for me I look for production. I have no qualm with Zeke and what he brings to this team.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

Not all RB are the same, yes OL is a big help but I can see a major difference in the play of McFadden, Morris and Zeke. I look for production out of high #1 picks be it DE, CB, RB, WR or any position and you can find stud players at all those position even later in the draft. We also see many high draft picks flat out bust regardless of the position they play so for me I look for production. I have no qualm with Zeke and what he brings to this team.

I'm not arguing McFadden = Zeke

I'm pointing out that this offensive line made a much less talented RB (McFadden) a productive back. Keep in mind they were able to do that without even a competent QB behind center to keep teams honest.

 

[Doomsday101]

I'm not arguing McFadden = Zeke

I'm pointing out that this offensive line made a much less talented RB (McFadden) a productive back. Keep in mind they were able to do that without even a competent QB behind center to keep teams honest.

We see things different I look for production out of my 1st rd pick Zeke brings that in spades the difference he makes for this team is big. He can help take this team to the next level. If we are speaking generic then I understand your point but given that we see so many bust regardless of the position with high picks my #1 concern is if I use a high pick on a player does he come out and produce like a #1. As I said I respect the work of Ramsey and Bosa they are living up to their status as is Zeke. I have watched guys like Claiborne who was a high pick and never came close to living up to the status.

 

[Future]

As good as Zeke is, I just can't justify drafting a RB in the top 5 in the current NFL and would go Ramsey all day.

My biggest grip with the Zeke pick, though, is that they made a win-now pick at #4 and then drafted a guy who wasn't going to play for an entire year in the second round. Imagine how much better they'd have been the last two years with, say, Deion Jones, instead of Jaylon. I just never understood the imbalance of a win-now pick and then following it up with a project. That lack of vision is what I hate about the Zeke pick because, though I'd have gone Ramsey, it's hard to argue Zeke's value to this team.

 

[mattjames2010]

No CB actually shuts down one side of the field.

Pass rushers affect the QB every play if they're as good as Bosa. CB's do not. Pass rushers win super bowls.

....and shut down corners impact the QB every play. And you have no idea what you're talking about, go watch the 2009/2010 Jets defense and what Revis did for it. You take out one side of the field and free up your safeties to do other things because a CB like Revis didn't need the help.

That's rare. Bosa has Ingram on the other side of him and that Chargers D is still not great. Ramsey has the ability to be one of the NFL's great CBs, Bosa will be a great DE in his own right, but an all-time great? Just not there.

Ramsey is the better talent at a much tougher position. You take Ramsey.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

We see things different I look for production out of my 1st rd pick Zeke brings that in spades the difference he makes for this team is big. He can help take this team to the next level. If we are speaking generic then I understand your point but given that we see so many bust regardless of the position with high picks my #1 concern is if I use a high pick on a player does he come out and produce like a #1. As I said I respect the work of Ramsey and Bosa they are living up to their status as is Zeke. I have watched guys like Claiborne who was a high pick and never came close to living up to the status.

Zeke has been very productive and has given value in return as it relates to his draft status; there’s no arguing that. Do you think a guy Jordan Howard could be similarly productive with this o-line?

 

[Doomsday101]

Zeke has been very productive and has given value in return as it relates to his draft status; there’s no arguing that. Do you think a guy Jordan Howard could be similarly productive with this o-line?

Maybe so but there are DE who were not 1st rd picks who ended up producing big. I actually pulled for Dallas to take Ramsey but knew Zeke was a safe pick who would produce and has.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

Maybe so but there are DE who were not 1st rd picks who ended up producing big. I actually pulled for Dallas to take Ramsey but knew Zeke was a safe pick who would produce and has.

The nuance I’m trying emphasize is not that RB is the only position that talent can be found other rounds, but rather that above others it’s the one position that provides talented/productive players in later rounds (or undrafted players) with regularity.

Just look at last year’s leading rushers (Top 10) draft pedigrees when compared to the league’s leading pass rushers.

 

[Doomsday101]

The nuance I’m trying emphasize is not that RB is the only position that talent can be found other rounds, but rather that above others it’s the one position that provides talented/productive players in later rounds (or undrafted players) with regularity.

Just look at last year’s leading rushers (Top 10) draft pedigrees when compared to the league’s leading pass rushers.

I like having Zeke, I think the difference me makes to this team is big. Dallas has invested high picks for DE as well.

 

[Ranched]

Maybe they buried a walnut in the endzone? Lol.

 

[kskboys]

And if you have a great offensive line that can allow a guy like Darren McFadden to register a 1,000+ yard season and improve his YPC from 3.4 (w/Raiders) to 4.6 (w/Cowboys) or help Alfred Morris go 550 yards at a 4.8 YPC, then drafting a RB at #4 is not good value.

Disagree. We won w/ Zeke because D's had to pay more attention to him. Makes everything on O work better.

 

[kskboys]

....and shut down corners impact the QB every play. And you have no idea what you're talking about, go watch the 2009/2010 Jets defense and what Revis did for it. You take out one side of the field and free up your safeties to do other things because a CB like Revis didn't need the help.

That's rare. Bosa has Ingram on the other side of him and that Chargers D is still not great. Ramsey has the ability to be one of the NFL's great CBs, Bosa will be a great DE in his own right, but an all-time great? Just not there.

Ramsey is the better talent at a much tougher position. You take Ramsey.

"No idea what you're talking about".

Geez, are you some kid or something? We're having a discussion. Throwing personal insults in for no reason is the stuff of grade schoolers. Seriously, grow up.

No player takes out one side of the field, just like no player gets to the QB every play. Those are exaggerations to emphasize.

You think CB's are more important. That's your viewpoint, and that's OK, even if I disagree w/ it.

Look at history. The D's that stood out to win championships are the ones that disrupted the pocket.

 

[mattjames2010]

"No idea what you're talking about".

Geez, are you some kid or something? We're having a discussion. Throwing personal insults in for no reason is the stuff of grade schoolers. Seriously, grow up.

No player takes out one side of the field, just like no player gets to the QB every play. Those are exaggerations to emphasize.

You think CB's are more important. That's your viewpoint, and that's OK, even if I disagree w/ it.

Look at history. The D's that stood out to win championships are the ones that disrupted the pocket.

First off, that wasn't a "personal insult". What are you on about?

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. I have told you, if you want to see what I am talking about, go watch some film on Revis in 2009/2010. A CB shutting down his guy frees up what a safety can do, that shutdown corner is the reason one side of the field becomes obsolete. Just look at the Jags last year, do you think their safeties are THAT good...or is it due to having a shut down corner on one side and a great corner in Bouye on the other? Church didn't suddenly become a near pro-bowl level safety for no reason....

What we are comparing here is Bosa being a great pass rusher, probably a top 10 DE all around - and looking at PFF, that have him around 7-8. Ramsey is a top 3 player at his position with only Lattimore and Hayward ahead of him.

And no, plenty of teams in the past didn't get anywhere with just good pass rushers - but only made it once their secondary was patched up. Look what Lattimore did for the Saints. Look what Sanders did for us in 95. I'm not downplaying the importance of a pass rusher, JJ Watt in his prime would be hard not to choose over even the best corner. But Bosa is not a JJ Watt, Ramsey is however an elite player at one of the most difficult positions in the league.

Ramsey is the best choice here.

 

[kskboys]

First off, that wasn't a "personal insult". What are you on about?

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. I have told you, if you want to see what I am talking about, go watch some film on Revis in 2009/2010. A CB shutting down his guy frees up what a safety can do, that shutdown corner is the reason one side of the field becomes obsolete. Just look at the Jags last year, do you think their safeties are THAT good...or is it due to having a shut down corner on one side and a great corner in Bouye on the other? Church didn't suddenly become a near pro-bowl level safety for no reason....

What we are comparing here is Bosa being a great pass rusher, probably a top 10 DE all around - and looking at PFF, that have him around 7-8. Ramsey is a top 3 player at his position with only Lattimore and Hayward ahead of him.

And no, plenty of teams in the past didn't get anywhere with just good pass rushers - but only made it once their secondary was patched up. Look what Lattimore did for the Saints. Look what Sanders did for us in 95. I'm not downplaying the importance of a pass rusher, JJ Watt in his prime would be hard not to choose over even the best corner. But Bosa is not a JJ Watt, Ramsey is however an elite player at one of the most difficult positions in the league.

Ramsey is the best choice here.

You're not even aware when you insult people? Wow, talk about a lack of self awareness!!!

Yes, they did. Great pass rushers/DL and S. 07 and 11 Gnats, Pitts last two, GB in 09, the list goes on of great DLines carrying teams. SF almost won a super bowl because of the disruption of Justin Smith.

 

[Cowboy4ever]

I would have taken Bosa or Ramsey before Zeke in 2016. But now, since we are stuck with the QB we have, it has to be Zeke. The QB can't function without him.