What is more important, Team or QB?

[aikemirv]

I have said this in multiple threads so I apologize. IMO, positional scarcity at the QB position is not as bad as it has been in the past. A long time ago, most high school and college teams ran the ball most of the time. Actually finding a QB who was big enough, smart enough and could throw the ball well enough to be an NFL QB was freaking hard. A few of the starters in the late 80's would struggle to make a team nowadays.

There are now a lot of QB's who can throw the ball in a good situation, just like there are a lot of RB's that can run the ball in a good situation.

NFL teams haven't figured this out yet, which is why Carson Wentz types keep getting huge contracts and then get beat by QB's on their rookie deals.

Regardless, this isn't the NBA where an elite player like Lebron can dominate the sport. Countless fantastic QB's like Dan Marino never even win a single title whereas Nick Foles, Joe Flacco, Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer have rings in the past 20 years.

A great team with an average QB has a shot. A great QB with an average team doesn't. Obviously everyone wants a great team with a great QB but if I had the choice, its team first.

A great QB who sits in the pocket is subject to the team around him to a great degree. A great QB who can escape the pocket and make plays elevates the team around him.

 

[sean10mm]

I need to dig up the source, but somebody crunched the numbers and realized that almost every QB in NFL history had a losing record when their defense gave up more points than the average for that year. It was completely nuts how bad almost every QB ever (including HOFers) are at winning when their D was just below average.

Rodgers, Rothleisburger, Wilson, Manning

2010 Packers had the #2 scoring defense in football
2005 Steelers were #3, 2008 Steelers were #1
2013 Seahawks were #1
2015 Broncos were #4

It's almost like there's some kind of pattern emerging here.

Brady's WORST D he won a title with was #8 in points allowed in 2014. And that was skewed by the D stinking the joint up in 2 of their first 4 games before getting on track.

 

[Reverend Conehead]

Yes but in order to do so you can’t over invest in your offense who would then need to be your strength carrying the team.

Cap era has proved with few exceptions you need either an Elite QB or Defense. Be great on at least one side of the ball and average to above average on the other side.

If our #1 offense isn’t great enough to carry us to the playoffs and beyond then we have over invested or they aren’t as great as we think they are or the stats are presenting.

You're right. The cap era has made it urgent to be able to draft well and get new players up to speed quickly so that you have a bunch of young and affordable players for 5 years or so. You can't go with only veteran and well-proven players like George Allen used to do. This ex Commanders coach used to just trade away most of his draft picks for players that he knew were good, and he created some outstanding teams known as the "over-the-hill gang" since his teams were generally older. He could do that back then, but that would never work today. Today you have to invest very wisely in whatever free agents you sign, but build mainly through the draft. You have to also be willing to let some good players walk if the dollars and cents don't work with your cap strategy.

 

[sean10mm]

A great QB who sits in the pocket is subject to the team around him to a great degree. A great QB who can escape the pocket and make plays elevates the team around him.

*Compares Brady's ring count and win % to Aaron Rodgers*

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh what?

 

[aikemirv]

*Compares Brady's ring count and win % to Aaron Rodgers*

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh what?

I was comparing Marino to Mahommes.

I thought we were leaving coaching out of it because NE has the best coach and the best QB in history! That said, I think Brady was subject to the team around him or he would have even more!

P Manning, Brees, Rodgers - put them on those NE teams - they still win!

 

[sean10mm]

I was comparing Marino to Mahommes.

I thought we were leaving coaching out of it because NE has the best coach and the best QB in history! That said, I think Brady was subject to the team around him or he would have even more!

Brady is personally responsible for making more stiffs at WR look respectable than anybody in league history. If that's not the QB directly elevating the offense I don't know what is.

 

[CowboyRoy]

So, was San Francisco a better TEAM than KC. I think they were!

Yah, I would definitely say that they were a better team overall.

 

[Diehardblues]

You're right. The cap era has made it urgent to be able to draft well and get new players up to speed quickly so that you have a bunch of young and affordable players for 5 years or so. You can't go with only veteran and well-proven players like George Allen used to do. This ex Commanders coach used to just trade away most of his draft picks for players that he knew were good, and he created some outstanding teams known as the "over-the-hill gang" since his teams were generally older. He could do that back then, but that would never work today. Today you have to invest very wisely in whatever free agents you sign, but build mainly through the draft. You have to also be willing to let some good players walk if the dollars and cents don't work with your cap strategy.

Yep

Basically teams are hanging onto mainly their QB’s for a career since they are most difficult to find in the draft.

But this era is all about drafting well every year. You can’t have a few good drafts and rest on your laurels for a decade like dynasties used to .

 

[Diehardblues]

Yah, I would definitely say that they were a better team overall.

Like we were a better team in 2016 playoffs against Packers. But the best player on the field made a miraculous play to win the game.

There were of course contributing factors along the way for us much like in 49ers loss that set up the opportunity for the best player to win the game. Some of those factors were on coaching schemes and some was on personal performance or lack of it by the talent.

It’s usually never just one thing.

But great talent given the opportunity have the ability to change their teams course in history.

 

[JD_KaPow]

1. When it comes to winning it all what is more important? The QB or the team around the QB? The other parts of the team.

Lets either keep coaching out of it or assume we have a quality coach.

The QB is the most important individual player on the team by far, but he doesn't provide half the team's value by himself, so technically the team around him is more important.

 

[Reverend Conehead]

Yep

Basically teams are hanging onto mainly their QB’s for a career since they are most difficult to find in the draft.

But this era is all about drafting well every year. You can’t have a few good drafts and rest on your laurels for a decade like dynasties used to .

Yes, and it increases the likelihood of player movement from team to team. It makes me miss the years back when so much of your core team stuck around year after year, and when they got a championship, it was the same basic group of guys celebrating having gone through the hard times together and prevailing in the end. IMO this change has made the game lose a part of it that made it so good, but I don't know that there would be any way to go back to the way things were. There are some pluses to the new system. If a kid grew up a fan of a particular team, his chances of getting to play for that team are greater. But, yeah, a couple crappy drafts in a row can really hurt a team, as can a bust free agent signing.

 

[Diehardblues]

The QB is the most important individual player on the team by far, but he doesn't provide half the team's value by himself, so technically the team around him is more important.

True

But look at the teams in Cap era who are consistently contenders. What’s the common thread?

 

[JD_KaPow]

True

But look at the teams in Cap era who are consistently contenders. What’s the common thread?

Talent.

 

[Diehardblues]

What we need with Dak is a great defense . But how do you build it with most of your Cap invested on offense?

And why Dak and this offense will need to be enough to carry us over the threshold.

 

[Diehardblues]

Talent.

Yep

Here’s an impressive list of talent for winning QB in the Super Bowl. Over 60% are HOFamers. And others soon to be. The rest had generational defenses or a QB got hot.

If y’all don’t think aQB is most important component then you might want to reach out to the NFL owners cause based on their actions appear to disagree.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_Bowl_starting_quarterbacks

 

[Diehardblues]

Yes, and it increases the likelihood of player movement from team to team. It makes me miss the years back when so much of your core team stuck around year after year, and when they got a championship, it was the same basic group of guys celebrating having gone through the hard times together and prevailing in the end. IMO this change has made the game lose a part of it that made it so good, but I don't know that there would be any way to go back to the way things were. There are some pluses to the new system. If a kid grew up a fan of a particular team, his chances of getting to play for that team are greater. But, yeah, a couple crappy drafts in a row can really hurt a team, as can a bust free agent signing.

The NFL reminds me now more of what College Football is having to recycle or retool your team almost every year and totally revamp every 3-4 years.

Great recruiting much like great drafting is the foundation to continuity.

With the exception of the QB and perhaps a handful or less of core talent.

As a result we are also seeing coaching turn over more frequently almost 25% every year cause if you can’t build it fast or turn it around you’re out.

 

[Jarv]

LOL...……...Yah, so what is your point?

Dak isn't Brady and Garrett isn't Bellicek.

Well of course they're not...lol

 

[rnr_honeybadger]

I need to dig up the source, but somebody crunched the numbers and realized that almost every QB in NFL history had a losing record when their defense gave up more points than the average for that year. It was completely nuts how bad almost every QB ever (including HOFers) are at winning when their D was just below average.



2010 Packers had the #2 scoring defense in football
2005 Steelers were #3, 2008 Steelers were #1
2013 Seahawks were #1
2015 Broncos were #4

It's almost like there's some kind of pattern emerging here.

Brady's WORST D he won a title with was #8 in points allowed in 2014. And that was skewed by the D stinking the joint up in 2 of their first 4 games before getting on track.

aww man and here I thought all we needed to win the super bowl was to find the reincarnation of Joe Montana.

 

[KJJ]

2010 Packers had the #2 scoring defense in football
2005 Steelers were #3, 2008 Steelers were #1
2013 Seahawks were #1
2015 Broncos were #4

Three of those teams had QBs that are locks for the HOF and Wilson will likely end up in the HOF.

 

[joshjwp]

Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl. Dan Marino did not.

Next question.

Perfection