Misunderstanding about players big paydays

[75boyz]

Zeke and jaylons guarantees were not from being on roster previous year
They kick in from keeping them on the roster this year
It’s not a big deal if you planned on the guy being on the roster anyway but it’s designed to force teams to make a decision rather than holding a player and cutting him later
Teams and players agree to these types of clauses
Almost every contract has built in outs just like Jaylon and Zeke have
A total contract is almost never paid out

Oh, I'm fully aware of outclauses but this is near impossible to escape that far in advance, lol. Their 2022's salary is now already guaranteed based on being on the roster after March of this year.

Since they were on the roster on the 5th calendar day after the new NFL year began last year in March, this year's 2021 salary became guaranteed. So yeah, a pretty big off season bite the bullet situation to consider on Jayon if rumors are accurate. Since this year is the same, if they cut Jaylon he still gets his fully guaranteed 2022 salary based on being on the roster after March this year.

That's a poor clause for any contract writing team imo because it doesn't allow the time for the offseason to make the decision.

jmo

 

[Creeper]

The way the NFL re-structured its pay system in the 2011 CBA, less money would be heaped on rookies, and more of the revenue pie would be shifted to veteran players who had earned a pay raise based on their play on the field, not their reputation coming out of college.

Before 2011, some first round rookies were getting paid a lot more money than some veteran starters who had proven to be valuable assets. So since 2011, the focus on how players were paid changed, and I think it was for the better.

But IMO, many fans see the big dollar second contracts that many veteran players get as an indication that the player then has to play even better than in the past to “justify” their pay raise. But actually the second contract is seen by both the owners and players as both a reward for good play and a way to retain that talent in the future at market value.

Here are some points on why I believe the big second contract is misunderstood:

• Most players who play very well on their rookie contracts are producing at a high level while also being paid well below market value. This is especially true of players drafted in the middle to late rounds who play very well on rookie deals.
• The second contract is an adjustment of pay to better fit the players perceived value, not necessarily their actual value.
• Most second contracts have “parachutes” built in for the owners to get out of the deal in the long term if certain conditions warrant. In other words, it gives the owners flexibility to not pay all of the original proposed amount.

I mention “fan misunderstandings about second contracts” because sometimes I think fans are unduly harsh on some players after getting a second deal. DeMarcus Lawrence is a good example of this.

IMO, DLaw has continued to play at a very high level. Fans tend to judge a player based solely on certain stats like sacks. Across the league, DLaw is a very respected player by offensive coordinators and is usually ranked in the top ten of defensive lineman by both players and pundits.

That’s not to say every second contract player continues to play well. Jay Ratliff, Miles Austin, Doug Free, Tyrone Crawford, and Zeke are IMO some examples of guys who were paid more than their long term value. Some of the good second contracts recently include Tyron Smith, Zack Martin, DLaw, and perhaps La’el Collins. We will see about Dak.

Bottom line for me is, a bigger paycheck for a pro football player is more complex than it used to be. Judging a player on stats vs dollars is not always accurate.

I get this and I have no problem with players getting paid after their rookie deals, although, first round picks making more than $3 million a year are not exactly starving either. My issue is overpaying guys who never produced to the level they got paid and continue to underperform compared to their salaries. In 2018 Demarcus Lawrence had 10 sacks, 1 INT, 1 PD, 2 FF. Good numbers and clearly the best on the Cowboys defense in 2018, the year before his deal. In 2019 in 14 games Robert Quinn, getting paid less than half what Lawrence got paid, had 11.5 sacks and 3 PDs. Before you throw the double team argument for Lawrence out there. In 2019 Law was doubled 25% of plays and Quinn 23%. Not a huge difference. In 2019, Za'Darius Smith signed with the Packers for $16.5 million per year, about $4.5 million less than DLaw. Smith had 13.5 sacks for the Packers despite having the highest double team rate in the NFL. In 2018 Smith had 8.5 sacks and 44 tackles, which is less than Lawrence had but not $4.5 million less.

I am not arguing that DLaw is not a good player. He is a solid to very good NFL DE. I will argue that Lawrence was not a good enough player to pay $21 million a year. His 14.5 sacks in 2017 was really good, but still not enough to make him the highest paid DE in the league which he was when he got his deal. The problem is, if you overpay 4 or 5 guys a few million each it adds up to a lot of CAP spending that hurt the team in other areas. DLaw should have gotten maybe $17 million based on his 2018 performance. Maybe the other $3 million a year could have been used somewhere else.

 

[Stash]

So thats the thing, he had just come off a great year, if they let him walk and couldn't find another good DE then they would've been roasted for letting him walk...see Byron Jones as an example.

And if they had drafted the scouts choice TJ Watt rather than Marinelli‘a choice in Taco Charlton, they could have considered it.

But they muffed the draft, tagged Lawrence rather than paying him until AFTER the defensive end market exploded with Mack and Donald deals and THEN were forced to overpay to keep Lawrence.

Yet another blunder from the Jones boys. Any other team and people making mistakes like that are fired. Here, they’re family.

 

[buybuydandavis]

The way the NFL re-structured its pay system in the 2011 CBA, less money would be heaped on rookies, and more of the revenue pie would be shifted to veteran players who had earned a pay raise based on their play on the field, not their reputation coming out of college.

Before 2011, some first round rookies were getting paid a lot more money than some veteran starters who had proven to be valuable assets. So since 2011, the focus on how players were paid changed, and I think it was for the better.

But IMO, many fans see the big dollar second contracts that many veteran players get as an indication that the player then has to play even better than in the past to “justify” their pay raise. But actually the second contract is seen by both the owners and players as both a reward for good play and a way to retain that talent in the future at market value.

Here are some points on why I believe the big second contract is misunderstood:

• Most players who play very well on their rookie contracts are producing at a high level while also being paid well below market value. This is especially true of players drafted in the middle to late rounds who play very well on rookie deals.
• The second contract is an adjustment of pay to better fit the players perceived value, not necessarily their actual value.
• Most second contracts have “parachutes” built in for the owners to get out of the deal in the long term if certain conditions warrant. In other words, it gives the owners flexibility to not pay all of the original proposed amount.

I mention “fan misunderstandings about second contracts” because sometimes I think fans are unduly harsh on some players after getting a second deal. DeMarcus Lawrence is a good example of this.

IMO, DLaw has continued to play at a very high level. Fans tend to judge a player based solely on certain stats like sacks. Across the league, DLaw is a very respected player by offensive coordinators and is usually ranked in the top ten of defensive lineman by both players and pundits.

That’s not to say every second contract player continues to play well. Jay Ratliff, Miles Austin, Doug Free, Tyrone Crawford, and Zeke are IMO some examples of guys who were paid more than their long term value. Some of the good second contracts recently include Tyron Smith, Zack Martin, DLaw, and perhaps La’el Collins. We will see about Dak.

Bottom line for me is, a bigger paycheck for a pro football player is more complex than it used to be. Judging a player on stats vs dollars is not always accurate.

The rookie wage scale is the classic collective bargaining agreement that enriches the *current* union members over future union members. Both management and the current union members win, the rookies lose.

As for DLaw, he's overpaid relative to his play and the market for top end veterans. He's playing like a very good player while being paid like an elite player. Less overpaid than Zeke, who is less overpaid than Jaylon.

Turn back the clock to the signing of those contracts. If you could snap your fingers, which of those contracts would you still want? For me, it's 0. And I only wanted 1 at the time, though admittedly, that was the worst of the 3 with Jaylon.

To be fair, those contracts came before Covid, and are looking worse after the fact because of the drop in revenue, and therefore cap, caused by Covid.

 

[buybuydandavis]

And if they had drafted the scouts choice TJ Watt rather than Marinelli‘a choice in Taco Charlton, they could have considered it.

But they muffed the draft, tagged Lawrence rather than paying him until AFTER the defensive end market exploded with Mack and Donald deals and THEN were forced to overpay to keep Lawrence.

Yet another blunder from the Jones boys. Any other team and people making mistakes like that are fired. Here, they’re family.

I was against the Lawrence contract, but to be fair to the Jones Boys, they were banking on a continued boom in the cap which was kneecapped by Covid. The contract wouldn't look so bad without the hiccup in the relentless increases in the cap.

 

[Bobhaze]

The rookie wage scale is the classic collective bargaining agreement that enriches the *current* union members over future union members. Both management and the current union members win, the rookies lose.

As for DLaw, he's overpaid relative to his play and the market for top end veterans. He's playing like a very good player while being paid like an elite player. Less overpaid than Zeke, who is less overpaid than Jaylon.

Turn back the clock to the signing of those contracts. If you could snap your fingers, which of those contracts would you still want? For me, it's 0. And I only wanted 1 at the time, though admittedly, that was the worst of the 3 with Jaylon.

I think if I were to select who to overpay, it would be veterans instead of rookies. The idea of making more of the financial pie available to the guys who have already played and proven something is better IMO that overpaying guys out of college in rounds 1-2 who have a great college reputation and resume.

Don’t necessarily disagree with you about the contracts you mentioned. And DLaw maybe overpaid some, but the alternative was trying to select someone as least as good in future drafts and that’s not easy. Totally agree with you about Zeke. That’s a dumb contract for multiple reasons. Jaylon was one I agreed with at the time, but I was wrong. He’s regressed.

 

[buybuydandavis]

Jaylon was one I agreed with at the time, but I was wrong. He’s regressed.

I say exactly the same.

I suspect Jaylon and his agent offered such a "great deal" out of the blue because Jaylon already had indications that the leg was regressing. Something for Jerry to keep in mind with players: they know their bodies better than you do.

 

[Bobhaze]

I say exactly the same.

I suspect Jaylon and his agent offered such a "great deal" out of the blue because Jaylon already had indications that the leg was regressing. Something for Jerry to keep in mind with players: they know their bodies better than you do.

Another lesson of many for this FO- stop taking unnecessary risks with round two picks.

 

[conner01]

Oh, I'm fully aware of outclauses but this is near impossible to escape that far in advance, lol. Their 2022's salary is now already guaranteed based on being on the roster after March of this year.

Since they were on the roster on the 5th calendar day after the new NFL year began last year in March, this year's 2021 salary became guaranteed. So yeah, a pretty big off season bite the bullet situation to consider on Jayon if rumors are accurate. Since this year is the same, if they cut Jaylon he still gets his fully guaranteed 2022 salary based on being on the roster after March this year.

That's a poor clause for any contract writing team imo because it doesn't allow the time for the offseason to make the decision.

jmo

That’s only Zeke and it won’t matter because the out in his contract is not till 2022 anyway
Jaylon has to be on roster 5th day of 2022 to have that year guaranteed. That’s why it’s affordable to move on from jaylon after this season
So the team agrees to these for a reason
They know when the outs are built into contracts

 

[Stash]

I was against the Lawrence contract, but to be fair to the Jones Boys, they were banking on a continued boom in the cap which was kneecapped by Covid. The contract wouldn't look so bad without the hiccup in the relentless increases in the cap.

They still signed him too late. And after the going rate for defensive linemen went from $17 to $20 million a year.

 

[conner01]

They still signed him too late. And after the going rate for defensive linemen went from $17 to $20 million a year.

There is so much advantage to extend guys you want ASAP
But sometimes it doesn’t work out
Tyron smith worked out amazing
But it’s a big gamble

 

[75boyz]

That’s only Zeke and it won’t matter because the out in his contract is not till 2022 anyway
Jaylon has to be on roster 5th day of 2022 to have that year guaranteed. That’s why it’s affordable to move on from jaylon after this season
So the team agrees to these for a reason
They know when the outs are built into contracts

Yep. My bad man. You were right. It was "only" Zeke's that was guaranteed for next year and not Jaylon as well. I posted earlier that I thought this early guarantee for next year's salary applied to both but you were right.

Wish Zeke didn't get it either but it's better than both I guess.

 

[blueblood70]

I think the Cowboys signed Zeke to a contract extension thinking he would continue to get better and they could run him into the ground during his prime years like they did Murray. At the end of his extension they would simply draft his replacement, which is what is going to happen. They just didn't know he would flatline.

I think Zeke is still a really good back and fully capable but we definitely overpaid to this point.

flatlined? How about use actual facts when you come to be in the EE hate crowd,

he got paid in 2019 had very good 2019 despite the transition over to pass offense and not being able to figure out how to utilize and work the run game into his offense ie new OC green as they come KM..

2020 Zeke had NO TEAM AT ALL AROUND HIM , also had covid, got dinged up and his team and defense had the offense needing to score 2-3 times just to catch up ie playing from behind..

Zeke did not flatline nor has he dropped off cliff..

he may not be 2016-2018 best back in football zeke but his demise is fully overblown..

if you want t make an argument the HC, Owner, and OC made mistake playing guy who was the identity of team who was run first, PA Pass ,TOP ownings , defensive heling type balanced offense.

now they have a 3wr throw around the yard and use Zeke as FB.. definitely not zekes fault but anyone judging zekes off last year has some huge issues with football 101 comprehension..

you all continue to compare this guy to smaller faster backs who are not FT backs and typically weren't used like zeke was for 4 years..in fact a guy like Henry wasn't doing squat in this league while zeke was tearing it up could have had the Rushing crown 3 straight years had it not been for RG making an example out of him and what not its being reversed, why

the titans are using Henry like Zeke now and using the qb in RT like we were using dak and playing a more balanced controlled offense centered around Henry..it revitalized both henry and tannehills career playing the way the DC did 2016-2018..

it for sure wasnt zeke fault this happened to him and 2020 is mulligan so you want o judge him for 2019 that fine but hes was still top 5 back 30yards short of top 3 and really played better then even his stats showed..KM forgot to use EE in many of these second half of games where he was hot the first half, got cute and what happened 3-5 finish missed payoffs and were 8-8-
its not coincidence that KM began this transition in 2019 but being 2020 really isnt a year to judge anyone , we will see 2021 if we have relatively healthy group of starters how KM , zeke and this offense truly finds balance and rhythm run and pass..

Bob is correct guys get paid for what they did and owners hoping they continue to be close to what they were before paid and 2019 shows zeke did that even with no offseason and KM as the new oc struggling with a run game..so 2021 should as we should all hope to see all of it come together..

this really hinges on Moore not the players, we have great pieces but the play calling needs to be better both pass and run blending together and throwing off defenses.

 

[atlantacowboy]

The way the NFL re-structured its pay system in the 2011 CBA, less money would be heaped on rookies, and more of the revenue pie would be shifted to veteran players who had earned a pay raise based on their play on the field, not their reputation coming out of college.

Before 2011, some first round rookies were getting paid a lot more money than some veteran starters who had proven to be valuable assets. So since 2011, the focus on how players were paid changed, and I think it was for the better.

But IMO, many fans see the big dollar second contracts that many veteran players get as an indication that the player then has to play even better than in the past to “justify” their pay raise. But actually the second contract is seen by both the owners and players as both a reward for good play and a way to retain that talent in the future at market value.

Here are some points on why I believe the big second contract is misunderstood:

• Most players who play very well on their rookie contracts are producing at a high level while also being paid well below market value. This is especially true of players drafted in the middle to late rounds who play very well on rookie deals.
• The second contract is an adjustment of pay to better fit the players perceived value, not necessarily their actual value.
• Most second contracts have “parachutes” built in for the owners to get out of the deal in the long term if certain conditions warrant. In other words, it gives the owners flexibility to not pay all of the original proposed amount.

I mention “fan misunderstandings about second contracts” because sometimes I think fans are unduly harsh on some players after getting a second deal. DeMarcus Lawrence is a good example of this.

IMO, DLaw has continued to play at a very high level. Fans tend to judge a player based solely on certain stats like sacks. Across the league, DLaw is a very respected player by offensive coordinators and is usually ranked in the top ten of defensive lineman by both players and pundits.

That’s not to say every second contract player continues to play well. Jay Ratliff, Miles Austin, Doug Free, Tyrone Crawford, and Zeke are IMO some examples of guys who were paid more than their long term value. Some of the good second contracts recently include Tyron Smith, Zack Martin, DLaw, and perhaps La’el Collins. We will see about Dak.

Bottom line for me is, a bigger paycheck for a pro football player is more complex than it used to be. Judging a player on stats vs dollars is not always accurate.

I don't agree on the second contract being a reward. Teams don't look at it like a straight up reward, b/c you don't pay for past performance. You do use it as a metric and ask how likely it is the player will perform as well or better in the future. Dak deserved a pay raise, but does he deserve to be the second highest paid QB in the NFL based on what he's accomplished so far? Absolutely not. Jerry and the FO think Dak can do better so they are paying him based on what they think he can do in the future. ..... and the going rate for QB's as determined by future salary cap projections.

As fans, we care about winning. I don't care if they pay Dak the entire 185M salary cap and find volunteers for the other 51 spots as long the team is winning. We get into cap discussions about player pay b/c there is a finite cap and we haven't won anything or even come close in over 25 years.......... and the team has a long modern history of poor team building.

 

[75boyz]

flatlined? How about use actual facts when you come to be in the EE hate crowd,

he got paid in 2019 had very good 2019 despite the transition over to pass offense and not being able to figure out how to utilize and work the run game into his offense ie new OC green as they come KM..

2020 Zeke had NO TEAM AT ALL AROUND HIM , also had covid, got dinged up and his team and defense had the offense needing to score 2-3 times just to catch up ie playing from behind..

Zeke did not flatline nor has he dropped off cliff..

he may not be 2016-2018 best back in football zeke but his demise is fully overblown..

if you want t make an argument the HC, Owner, and OC made mistake playing guy who was the identity of team who was run first, PA Pass ,TOP ownings , defensive heling type balanced offense.

now they have a 3wr throw around the yard and use Zeke as FB.. definitely not zekes fault but anyone judging zekes off last year has some huge issues with football 101 comprehension..

you all continue to compare this guy to smaller faster backs who are not FT backs and typically weren't used like zeke was for 4 years..in fact a guy like Henry wasn't doing squat in this league while zeke was tearing it up could have had the Rushing crown 3 straight years had it not been for RG making an example out of him and what not its being reversed, why

the titans are using Henry like Zeke now and using the qb in RT like we were using dak and playing a more balanced controlled offense centered around Henry..it revitalized both henry and tannehills career playing the way the DC did 2016-2018..

it for sure wasnt zeke fault this happened to him and 2020 is mulligan so you want o judge him for 2019 that fine but hes was still top 5 back 30yards short of top 3 and really played better then even his stats showed..KM forgot to use EE in many of these second half of games where he was hot the first half, got cute and what happened 3-5 finish missed payoffs and were 8-8-
its not coincidence that KM began this transition in 2019 but being 2020 really isnt a year to judge anyone , we will see 2021 if we have relatively healthy group of starters how KM , zeke and this offense truly finds balance and rhythm run and pass..

Bob is correct guys get paid for what they did and owners hoping they continue to be close to what they were before paid and 2019 shows zeke did that even with no offseason and KM as the new oc struggling with a run game..so 2021 should as we should all hope to see all of it come together..

this really hinges on Moore not the players, we have great pieces but the play calling needs to be better both pass and run blending together and throwing off defenses.

It will be the ultimate litmus test for KM. To figure out how to blend this highly publicized pass happy 3 wr offense along with power and smash mouth run principles that Zeke thrives under.
I am skeptical as to Moore's ability to properly achieve the balance that is needed.
In fact, they could steal a page out of the old New England play book and actually be a smash mouth offense one week and Kurt Warner's Rams the next depending on the opponent if they wanted to. The pieces are there.

Whether I agree with your previous post history or not I try to judge each post one at a time based on its own merit if applicable.

I think this post accurately describes what happened to the offense, the current running game and the pressure filled expectations of the young OC.

Imo, Moore needs to somehow learn how to achieve the proper balance with the running game when it's working because this whole PR machine, high flying big 12 style offense that Jerry created and Couch Coach covered in detail on a previous post is destined for failure.

It's up to Moore to figure this thing out the right way and call it accordingly using the proper and balanced run/pass mixture.

We'll see if he's up to the challenge.

My opinion.

Again, excellent post.

 

[Bobhaze]

I don't agree on the second contract being a reward. Teams don't look at it like a straight up reward, b/c you don't pay for past performance. You do use it as a metric and ask how likely it is the player will perform as well or better in the future. Dak deserved a pay raise, but does he deserve to be the second highest paid QB in the NFL based on what he's accomplished so far? Absolutely not. Jerry and the FO think Dak can do better so they are paying him based on what they think he can do in the future. ..... and the going rate for QB's as determined by future salary cap projections.

As fans, we care about winning. I don't care if they pay Dak the entire 185M salary cap and find volunteers for the other 51 spots as long the team is winning. We get into cap discussions about player pay b/c there is a finite cap and we haven't won anything or even come close in over 25 years.......... and the team has a long modern history of poor team building.

AC I agree with you that the second contract should not seen as a reward by the owners. (I think I did say they would see it as a reward in the OP- that was wrong) And shouldn’t be. I think I was meaning that the players Union in its CBA negotiations see the second contract as somewhat of a compensation for players playing well below market value under their rookie deal. I agree with you that it should never be seen as a reward in and of itself.

If you look at what a guy like Dak made for 4 years under his rookie deal, he was being paid well below market value for a starting QB with some playoff experience. Second contracts for starting QBs are all insane. And I agree with you that Dak must perform at a high level to make his deal ever “worth it”. I also believe many of our fans hold it against Dak for garnering the big payday he got when really it’s just the way the crazy NFL QB market works.

And like you said…winning cures all. If the Cowboys make some major noise in the playoffs as in at least make it to an NFC championship, some of the anti-Dak noise will go down.

 

[atlantacowboy]

AC I agree with you that the second contract is not seen as a reward by the owners. And shouldn’t be. I think I was meaning that the players Union in its CBA negotiations see the second contract as somewhat of a compensation for players playing well below market value under their rookie deal. I agree with you that it should never be seen as a reward in and of itself.

If you look at what a guy like Dak made for 4 years under his rookie deal, he was being paid well below market value for a starting QB with some playoff experience. Second contracts for starting QBs are all insane. And I agree with you that Dak must perform at a high level to make his deal ever “worth it”. I also believe many of our fans hold it against Dak for garnering the big payday he got when really it’s just the way the crazy NFL QB market works.

And like you said…winning cures all. If the Cowboys make some major noise in the playoffs as in at least make it to an NFC championship, some of the anti-Dak noise will go down.

Oh, I totally agree that the intent of the last CBA was to redistribute the wealth to the veterans. But that's not the whole story. Most teams salary structures are still very top heavy. On most teams, the top 10 contracts compromise over 90% of the teams cap. So, its still all the money going to relatively few players. ....only difference now is a rookie isn't in the top 5 paid anymore.

Dak is getting same noise Romo got. At some point, a QB has to win games no matter the stats or fans revolt.

 

[aikemirv]

I really could care less about how much a player makes except for how it effects the teams cap. I buy very, very little merchandise and rarely go to games. So the impact of their enormous salary just impacts me by the ad money and endorsement money cost in almost every product I buy. I would be curious on a study of how much that money ( sports ads and endorsement money in general) effects the average price of everything we buy. I wonder if it's even 5% of cost.

All I care about is the way they go about it. Zeke, while I feel in bad form, made a decision based on the length of a RB career. I understand his motive but still feel it was bad form. Demarcus on the other hand. Delaying surgery was a turd move and I would have walked from him after that!

 

[Diehardblues]

I think if I were to select who to overpay, it would be veterans instead of rookies. The idea of making more of the financial pie available to the guys who have already played and proven something is better IMO that overpaying guys out of college in rounds 1-2 who have a great college reputation and resume.

Don’t necessarily disagree with you about the contracts you mentioned. And DLaw maybe overpaid some, but the alternative was trying to select someone as least as good in future drafts and that’s not easy. Totally agree with you about Zeke. That’s a dumb contract for multiple reasons. Jaylon was one I agreed with at the time, but I was wrong. He’s regressed.

Overall I’d have to agree but there are exceptions to the rule.

What id suggest is when there are Rookies who excel early like a Zeke or Mahomes for example , they shouldn’t have to wait until their 5 year Rookie deal matures.

And on the other side I’d suggest not having minimums for veterans which makes it a tougher choice for a team to retain them even in a backup role if they can pay a Rookie much less.

 

[MyFairLady]

It is a fixed cap. You need to get the most out of each salary cap dollar to give yourself the best chance to win. We spend our money on magic beans and Jerrys buddies. It is a sickness and we do not win because of it.