How to move forward at qb?

[Blitzen]

Help on one side of the ball of on all or on both? Because it still takes a team to win games.

And what kind of coaching is going along with that help?

It all varies. This team was constructed to have a high power offense. Most of the cash prior to this season and the bulk of the best draft resources were invested in the unit. So the team depends on the offense to score lots of points. The defense was largely ignored until about a year ago and then tons of resources were poured into it (with the prayer that the unit would improve significantly immediately with a brand new coordinator). They desperately want another McCarthy 12-5 season and don’t care what happens after that. They can still win this putrid division.

 

[Captain-Crash]

I agree with you 10000000%. Elite quarterbacks SHOULD elevate their and overcome bad defensive stretches, no argument here. For one, I don't consider Dak an elite quarterback, but based on your statement I have 3 quick questions for you.

1. Why didn't an elite quarterback like Matthew Stafford elevate his team and couldn't win his first playoff game until his 12th season in the NFL?

2. If elite quarterbacks supposed to elevate their teams past bad situations, defenses, etc, why do an elite quarterback like Matthew Stafford get so many excuses for failing to do so?

3. How many elite or non elite quarterbacks have been able to elevate their teams with historically league worst defenses to accomplish anything in the postseason? What are their names?

To answer your third question: Patrick Mahomes took the 2018 Chiefs all the way to the AFC Championship Game with a 28th-ranked scoring defense. Eli Manning won the Super Bowl in 2011 with the 25th-ranked defense in the NFL. True elite quarterbacks actually find ways to overcome those defensive stretches.
You're comparing Dak's situation to Stafford in Detroit, but Dak wasn't drafted by a dysfunctional franchise. He stepped into a ready-made Cowboys roster with Hall of Fame talent. Stafford gets a pass because the literal second he got a competent team with the Rams, he won a Super Bowl in year one. Dak has had Super Bowl-caliber rosters for nearly a decade and still hasn't made a Conference Championship. If you don't consider Dak elite, then we agree—he shouldn't be compared to guys like Mahomes, Stafford, or Eli, who actually have rings.

 

[GINeric]

LMAO notice how you completely ignored the fact that the defense held San Francisco to 19 points and Dak still lost the game by scoring 12? You completely abandoned your defense argument because it got blown up.
And yes, it IS protecting him. You are trying to shut down the conversation about Dak's specific playoff choking by saying, 'well, he shouldn't even be mentioned with those guys.' You brought up Allen, Burrow, and Marino as a shield so you didn't have to face the reality of Dak's awful 2–5 playoff record, his early pick-sixes, and his $60 million price tag. Glad we finally agree he isn't in their tier.

I guess you need to brush up on your reading skills my man because I mentioned twice that im not excusing Dak from his lackluster play at times in the postseason.

Oh yeah, in that 49ers playoff game you mentioned, we as a team committed a league record 14 penalties in that game. No quarterback in history has ever led a team to a post season victory after their team committed 14 penalties. The 49ers also had the number one defense that season as well.

Here's the million dollar question....

1. If no quarterback or team in NFL history has ever won a playoff game vs a number one defense or otherwise in NFL history.... why do you expect Dak and the Dallas Cowboys to have pulled that off?

 

[Captain-Crash]

I guess you need to brush up on your reading skills my man because I mentioned twice that im not excusing Dak from his lackluster play at times in the postseason.

Oh yeah, in that 49ers playoff game you mentioned, we as a team committed a league record 14 penalties in that game. No quarterback in history has ever led a team to a post season victory after their team committed 14 penalties. The 49ers also had the number one defense that season as well.

Here's the million dollar question....

1. If no quarterback or team in NFL history has ever won a playoff game vs a number one defense or otherwise in NFL history.... why do you expect Dak and the Dallas Cowboys to have pulled that off?

To answer your question directly: That premise isn't historically accurate. Teams have actually won playoff games with 14 or more penalties several times, including the 1980 Raiders, the 1981 49ers, the 2002 Raiders, and even the Dallas Cowboys themselves back in 2009 against the Eagles.

Nobody expects any quarterback to be perfect against a number-one defense. But when a franchise quarterback is taking up a massive portion of the salary cap, the expectation is that they protect the football. Even with the 14 penalties, the Cowboys' defense held the 49ers to 23 points and gave Dak the ball back with a chance to win the game at the end.

fact>feelings

 

[Captain-Crash]

The biggest challenge for Dallas going forward is the salary cap math. When a quarterback takes up that much of the team's budget, it's impossible to afford 53 elite players to carry the load. At that price point, the quarterback has to be the one elevating the rest of the roster, rather than needing a perfect roster around him to win.

 

[zekecowboy]

Time to move on was now, last week, last month, last year, 5 years. He should have never ever been tagged or given a second contract and even worse a 3rd contract. He was never the guy. And will never be the guy. Its time to consider Howell or Milton. Can't be any worse

Wish Dallas would just trade Dak! Don't bother telling me about the cap implications.

 

[john van brocklin]

This isn’t an anti Dak post. I think every qb has games like last night. The difference is their defense and coaching isn’t atrocious and maybe it can help them still win.

I think Dak is a top 10 qb but like any other guy outside the top 5….one who needs help around him to win.

Reality is though. He’ll be 34 next year. With one year remaining on his deal. The window to win with him is closing… and closing fast.

In a deep qb draft….Shouldn’t we start to prepare for life after Dak? Consider drafting a guy and letting him sit for a year?

Jerry absolutely failed with Troy’s replacement strategy
Expect more wing and a prayer once Dak ages out.

 

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Jerry absolutely failed with Troy’s replacement strategy
Expect more wing and a prayer once Dak ages out.

My main fear is he is aged out but gets extended again anyway.

 

[kramskoi]

The biggest challenge for Dallas going forward is the salary cap math. When a quarterback takes up that much of the team's budget, it's impossible to afford 53 elite players to carry the load. At that price point, the quarterback has to be the one elevating the rest of the roster, rather than needing a perfect roster around him to win.

If Prescott played for Kyle Shanahan he might already have a ring. He's been MORE than good enough since 2023. He's certainly better than Garropolo ever was. 80 rushing yards per game is not going to cut it. A headcoach/playcaller with the trash game plan he had for the Bucs isn't going to cut it either.

 

[GINeric]

To answer your third question: Patrick Mahomes took the 2018 Chiefs all the way to the AFC Championship Game with a 28th-ranked scoring defense. Eli Manning won the Super Bowl in 2011 with the 25th-ranked defense in the NFL. True elite quarterbacks actually find ways to overcome those defensive stretches.
You're comparing Dak's situation to Stafford in Detroit, but Dak wasn't drafted by a dysfunctional franchise. He stepped into a ready-made Cowboys roster with Hall of Fame talent. Stafford gets a pass because the literal second he got a competent team with the Rams, he won a Super Bowl in year one. Dak has had Super Bowl-caliber rosters for nearly a decade and still hasn't made a Conference Championship. If you don't consider Dak elite, then we agree—he shouldn't be compared to guys like Mahomes, Stafford, or Eli, who actually have rings.

One team you mentioned had a 25th ranked defense, the other had a 28th..... but Dallas has/had a 32nd ranked defense. So you still never my question. What team has done these things with a 32nd ranked defense????? Last I checked, the answer is NONE. I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong....

Then I thought it was quite hilarious the excuses you gave to Stafford in Detroit RIGHT AFTER you made it loud and clear that ELITE QUARTERBACKS ELEVATE THEIR TEAMS. Well sir, he didn't do that in Detroit, I don't care how many goal post moving excuses you give him.

The year he won a Superbowl with the Rams, he led the league in interceptions.... 10 other quarterbacks would have won the Superbowl with the Rams that season.

And to conclude, you are very correct and I agree with you. Dak should NOT be mentioned with those quarterbacks who won Superbowls, you have no arguments from me there.

Just like no quarterbacks who haven't won a Superbowl shouldn't be mentioned with Mahomes, Stafford, Eli.... ANNNDDD Dilfer, Foles and Brad Johnson. They have rings as well.

 

[Blue&Silver]

I don't blame Prescott for our losing. That be said we should have been grooming a young QB for a couple years now.

 

[GINeric]

My main fear is he is aged out but gets extended again anyway.

His family better not allow him to extend Dak. Someone has to step in if thats his way of thinking when that time comes.

 

[Captain-Crash]

If Prescott played for Kyle Shanahan he might already have a ring. He's been MORE than good enough since 2023. He's certainly better than Garropolo ever was. 80 rushing yards per game is not going to cut it. A headcoach/playcaller with the trash game plan he had for the Bucs isn't going to cut it either.

It’s definitely true that Kyle Shanahan's system elevates quarterbacks, and Dak is absolutely a more physically talented passer than Jimmy Garoppolo ever was

But that actually highlights the exact team-building problem. San Francisco was able to build that elite, star-studded roster with a top-tier run game and defense precisely because Jimmy Garoppolo and Brock Purdy were playing on cheap, team-friendly contracts. Because the 49ers weren’t paying their quarterback market-setting money, they had the leftover cash to buy Christian McCaffrey, Trent Williams, Nick Bosa, and Fred Warner.

When a quarterback takes up a massive portion of the salary cap on his own, the front office is forced to make compromises elsewhere. They can't afford elite playcallers, top-tier coaching staffs, or an expensive, dominant run defense to balance things out. Ultimately, a quarterback contract that high means the team is counting on the quarterback to overcome a flawed game plan or an average run game, rather than needing Kyle Shanahan to save them.

 

[Captain-Crash]

If Prescott played for Kyle Shanahan he might already have a ring. He's been MORE than good enough since 2023. He's certainly better than Garropolo ever was. 80 rushing yards per game is not going to cut it. A headcoach/playcaller with the trash game plan he had for the Bucs isn't going to cut it either.

It’s definitely true that Kyle Shanahan's system elevates quarterbacks, and Dak is absolutely a more physically talented passer than Jimmy Garoppolo ever was

But that actually highlights the exact team-building problem. San Francisco was able to build that elite, star-studded roster with a top-tier run game and defense precisely because Jimmy Garoppolo and Brock Purdy were playing on cheap, team-friendly contracts. Because the 49ers weren’t paying their quarterback market-setting money, they had the leftover cash to buy Christian McCaffrey, Trent Williams, Nick Bosa, and Fred Warner.

One team you mentioned had a 25th ranked defense, the other had a 28th..... but Dallas has/had a 32nd ranked defense. So you still never my question. What team has done these things with a 32nd ranked defense????? Last I checked, the answer is NONE. I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong....

Then I thought it was quite hilarious the excuses you gave to Stafford in Detroit RIGHT AFTER you made it loud and clear that ELITE QUARTERBACKS ELEVATE THEIR TEAMS. Well sir, he didn't do that in Detroit, I don't care how many goal post moving excuses you give him.

The year he won a Superbowl with the Rams, he led the league in interceptions.... 10 other quarterbacks would have won the Superbowl with the Rams that season.

And to conclude, you are very correct and I agree with you. Dak should NOT be mentioned with those quarterbacks who won Superbowls, you have no arguments from me there.

Just like no quarterbacks who haven't won a Superbowl shouldn't be mentioned with Mahomes, Stafford, Eli.... ANNNDDD Dilfer, Foles and Brad Johnson. They have rings as well.

To answer that question directly: No team has ever won a Super Bowl with a 32nd-ranked defense because a 32nd-ranked defense means you are the literal worst in the NFL.
But that scenario doesn't apply to Dallas. The Cowboys have never had a 32nd-ranked scoring defense during Dak's career. In fact, during his playoff runs, the defense has usually been a strength. In the 2021 playoff loss to the 49ers, Dallas had the 7th-ranked scoring defense. In the 2022 loss to the 49ers, they had the 5th-ranked scoring defense. Even in the 2023 season collapse against Green Bay, the defense finished the regular season ranked 5th in points allowed. They had a bad game against the Packers, but the unit itself was statistically elite.
Ultimately, it sounds like we actually agree on the biggest point here. If we both agree that Dak isn't an elite quarterback and shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as guys who carry their teams to championships, then the debate is pretty much settled. At his contract price, the expectation is elite performance, and if he isn't giving them that in January, the team building math just doesn't work out.

 

[Captain-Crash]

Later going to get some food.

 

[GINeric]

To answer your question directly: That premise isn't historically accurate. Teams have actually won playoff games with 14 or more penalties several times, including the 1980 Raiders, the 1981 49ers, the 2002 Raiders, and even the Dallas Cowboys themselves back in 2009 against the Eagles.

Nobody expects any quarterback to be perfect against a number-one defense. But when a franchise quarterback is taking up a massive portion of the salary cap, the expectation is that they protect the football. Even with the 14 penalties, the Cowboys' defense held the 49ers to 23 points and gave Dak the ball back with a chance to win the game at the end.

fact>feelings

You make some great arguments sir, but no team in NFL history has ever won a post season game facing a number one defense and committing 14 penalties.

Its really good debating with you sir. Much respect to you.



Facts>feelings

 

[kramskoi]

It’s definitely true that Kyle Shanahan's system elevates quarterbacks, and Dak is absolutely a more physically talented passer than Jimmy Garoppolo ever was

But that actually highlights the exact team-building problem. San Francisco was able to build that elite, star-studded roster with a top-tier run game and defense precisely because Jimmy Garoppolo and Brock Purdy were playing on cheap, team-friendly contracts. Because the 49ers weren’t paying their quarterback market-setting money, they had the leftover cash to buy Christian McCaffrey, Trent Williams, Nick Bosa, and Fred Warner.

To answer that question directly: No team has ever won a Super Bowl with a 32nd-ranked defense because a 32nd-ranked defense means you are the literal worst in the NFL.
But that scenario doesn't apply to Dallas. The Cowboys have never had a 32nd-ranked scoring defense during Dak's career. In fact, during his playoff runs, the defense has usually been a strength. In the 2021 playoff loss to the 49ers, Dallas had the 7th-ranked scoring defense. In the 2022 loss to the 49ers, they had the 5th-ranked scoring defense. Even in the 2023 season collapse against Green Bay, the defense finished the regular season ranked 5th in points allowed. They had a bad game against the Packers, but the unit itself was statistically elite.
Ultimately, it sounds like we actually agree on the biggest point here. If we both agree that Dak isn't an elite quarterback and shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as guys who carry their teams to championships, then the debate is pretty much settled. At his contract price, the expectation is elite performance, and if he isn't giving them that in January, the team building math just doesn't work out.

Prescott was on a cheap contract to start. Purdy inherited an already built system. I didn't say anything about Prescott being elite but since 2023 he has had long stretches of at least 1 2 or 3 in QBR. Since 2023 he has largely not been the problem. This team simply doesn't run the ball nearly enough. Look at Prescott's QBR since 2023 vs. Purdy. Purdy has a run-oriented/focused team with a FAR better defense. Prescott does not. And because of that Prescott must always be the savior...and when he isn't he needs to go.

One of Prescott's best QBR years was his rookie season...but he wasn't ready to deliver a championship. No quarterback is in that first year. He wasn't capable of that in 2021 or 2022. He lost a few seasons due to injury. He progressed mostly like Romo did. Romo wasn't championship ready until 2014 but by then his body was breaking down. 8 years from starting. Prescott...7 years from starting.

After watching the all-22 for three hours, I'm FAR more concerned about Schottenheimer and his game plans than Parker or Prescott. He put his quarterback in a position to fail almost the entire night. He did the same kind of crap that Kellen Moore got fired for. He turned his own offense into a feast or famine unit. Yet another instance of a training on the job HC misusing a high level of offensive talent. From what I saw on all-22 this offense will succeed largely in spite of Schottenheimer rather than because of him.

 

[Gangsta Spanksta]

At the end of the Day, the grim reality is, we can't expect there to be good defensive coaching here, because the organizational foundation of the system is broken. It's been that way for a long time, and the Quarterback Romo or Dak steps in each year given what they have at coaching with whatever staff the current puppet comes with in or Jerry replaces someone with.

The last time there was a functional organization when it came to coaching, was with Parcels, since he was the Big Tuna around here. I was hoping we would get that with Big Mike, but me and I believe Die Hard were warning people don't assume he is not coming in, being another Puppet. The only chance we have is if one of the Jones on a whim decides to bring in a coach with authority again as was done with Parcels.

So I got no expectation of the coaches suddenly becoming leaders and developing the talent on Defense. That's why I can agree with everyone, yeah coaching is at fault, and yeah the defense is horrid, but I still expect more from the quarterback who by the very position is in a leadership role. All I can hope for is it being one of the years where we make it to the playoffs, but I know when we do get there, the team is not setup to win. That's one reason I emphasize that I want a quarterback that doesn't crack under pressure, and who displays some on the field leadership. It's hard, because like a video I posted of Aikman having to do that in the Switzer era, it takes a lot out of a QB to also play the bad cop. But with the Coaches not doing it, the job falls back down to the quarterback, like it or not.

 

[Gangsta Spanksta]

One of Prescott's best QBR years was his rookie season...but he wasn't ready to deliver a championship. No quarterback is in that first year. He wasn't capable of that in 2021 or 2022. He lost a few seasons due to injury. He progressed mostly like Romo did. Romo wasn't championship ready until 2014 but by then his body was breaking down. 8 years from starting. Prescott...7 years from starting.

I'd take the 2016 version of Dak in the Playoffs over the current one, even if this version is more experienced and talented. The 2016 version, played with instincts and didn't crack under pressure. This version of Dak, folds with pressure. That's big game and post season, which is my main concern.

 

[Captain-Crash]

Prescott was on a cheap contract to start. Purdy inherited an already built system. I didn't say anything about Prescott being elite but since 2023 he has had long stretches of at least 1 2 or 3 in QBR. Since 2023 he has largely not been the problem. This team simply doesn't run the ball nearly enough. Look at Prescott's QBR since 2023 vs. Purdy. Purdy has a run-oriented/focused team with a FAR better defense. Prescott does not. And because of that Prescott must always be the savior...and when he isn't he needs to go.

One of Prescott's best QBR years was his rookie season...but he wasn't ready to deliver a championship. No quarterback is in that first year. He wasn't capable of that in 2021 or 2022. He lost a few seasons due to injury. He progressed mostly like Romo did. Romo wasn't championship ready until 2014 but by then his body was breaking down. 8 years from starting. Prescott...7 years from starting.

After watching the all-22 for three hours, I'm FAR more concerned about Schottenheimer and his game plans than Parker or Prescott. He put his quarterback in a position to fail almost the entire night. He did the same kind of crap that Kellen Moore got fired for. He turned his own offense into a feast or famine unit. Yet another instance of a training on the job HC misusing a high level of offensive talent. From what I saw on all-22 this offense will succeed largely in spite of Schottenheimer rather than because of him.

At that salary point, the quarterback is being paid to overcome bad coaching, poor run games, and flawed designs. If the scheme has to be absolutely perfect for the quarterback to win in January, the financial math makes it incredibly difficult to build a deep enough roster around him.