The Case for Firing Jason Garrett and the coaching staff **merged**

[Idgit]

Being in games is standard for almost every bad team.

It means nothing.

That is what the salary cap has brought us.

I can safely say I completely disagree with that statement. There's a huge difference between being in the games and not being in them.

 

[birdwells1]

Sturm hasn't been a fan of Garrett's for a long time.

We may be effectively out of contention, but there's a lot of football to play yet. Garrett's got a lot of coaching to do still this year. Whether he can keep the team out of the tank or not will say a lot about his longevity in Dallas.

The game this weekend is going to be huge. WAS is going to be pumped. On the road. Huge national audience. Division implications. Callahan. It's going to be a buzz saw from a mediocre team. I'm curious to see how we handle it.

This about the time ol' Jason goes on a winning streak, you know the one (like in 2012) that come when we are out of contention, when people are calling for his head, and when drafting position is at stake. Yeah, a winning streak at juuust the wrong time but the right time for Jason who will be the only one to benefit from it.

 

[CATCH17]

I can safely say I completely disagree with that statement. There's a huge difference between being in the games and not being in them.

Well I agree but I look around the league every week and most teams are in games.

Being in games is the bare minimum in today's NFL.

Not a lot of blowouts happening.

 

[Idgit]

Yeah, I agree. I think there's more empirical evidence on the anti-Garrett side than the other.

There kind of is right now. I hate it, but I have to admit, I'm befuddled by how this season has played out.

I look at it one way and say we lost the one player we couldn't afford to lose, at the position where we were probably backed up the poorest on the entire team. That part makes sense. But how we're also not getting pressure on opposing QBs and not getting the takeaways when we've added a lot of front-7 talent (Hardy and Gregory and getting Lee back is a lot of talent) is beyond me. I don't buy that it's because we had a team built to play with a lead. I just don't know what's going on there, honestly. And I'm not sure anybody does.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It is the players job to execute, however it is the coaches jobs to put the players in the best position to execute and win, as well as preparing them week in and week out for different assignments and matchups.

I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that they believe the coaches have performed those duties.

Sure. I have no doubt that there are all kinds problems over in that environment. That is far cry from calling for any particular man's job and other such retribution.

 

[CyberB0b]

So you would fire Garrett and be pleased if we brought in Ryan?

No. Where did I say that? Ryan really has nothing to do without Garret's failures as a coach. They're mutually exclusive. I'm saying as much as I dislike Ryan, he's at least got some success in the league.

 

[Idgit]

Change went in on the first drive before the half. Remember we had been sacking him repeatedly and then they scored right before the half?

The BB interview after that game was really interesting. They responded to the 3 man like by keeping Gronk in to block and hitting us with the pick plays. One of the local NE reporters asked Bill about his half time adjustments and Bill responded to him like he was crazy. "Why would we wait until halftime to make adjustments? We're making adjustments all game long as soon as we see what they're doing. They came out with something effective we hadn't seen before, and we adjusted to it there on the spot."

That's in quotes, but it's a paraphrase. But you get the point. The Pats don't mess around. No NFL teams mess around, but not messing around is so much a part of their culture that the HC is basically mocking members of the press for suggesting otherwise after a blow out win.

 

[Dave_in-NC]

The BB interview after that game was really interesting. They responded to the 3 man like by keeping Gronk in to block and hitting us with the pick plays. One of the local NE reporters asked Bill about his half time adjustments and Bill responded to him like he was crazy. "Why would we wait until halftime to make adjustments? We're making adjustments all game long as soon as we see what they're doing. They came out with something effective we hadn't seen before, and we adjusted to it there on the spot."

That's in quotes, but it's a paraphrase. But you get the point. The Pats don't mess around. No NFL teams mess around, but not messing around is so much a part of their culture that the HC is basically mocking members of the press for suggesting otherwise after a blow out win.

So we are making changes all game long but yet every thing appears the same and they just don't work?

 

[texbumthelife]

I know for a fact that he adjusts the depths of cuts from his WR. The in and out cut are installed in the beginning of camp and I understand at least that process. I watch him do it and then I see his opponents adjusting the depth of their coverage drops. I look for where they start and their timing to stop their backpedal.

As for the route tree not being varied. What route do they not run? I'm not sure how to respond to that recollection of yours. And if the opponent calls man and you flood a zone that doesn't mean it was a bad call even if it doesn't work. WR also run the wrong routes and our guys quite often don't make the right adjustments. I think that entire dynamic has a lot more to do with the OC and the QB than Garrett. Garrett doesn't even call the plays remember?

I never said that you were all in on Sturm, I was just speaking to the point. Sturm has flip flopped based on record from what I can tell. You don't deny that.

Just on the subject of the route designs, I have been following it all season very closely through the All-22 and if they have "varied the depth of routes and breaks" then it hasn't shown up on the field. There is a reason our receivers seem to get very little separation. It's not because they're all awful, obviously. It's because their routes are predictable, generally on down and distance and where they line up. For example, the X receiver or split end receiver, is almost always going deep or running a 10 yard hook. I would say with great confidence, that this is the case 75% of the time. That's why our X receiver generally has little to no separation. Even defensive backs have come out and commented on how predictable the routes are.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

There kind of is right now. I hate it, but I have to admit, I'm befuddled by how this season has played out.

I look at it one way and say we lost the one player we couldn't afford to lose, at the position where we were probably backed up the poorest on the entire team. That part makes sense. But how we're also not getting pressure on opposing QBs and not getting the takeaways when we've added a lot of front-7 talent (Hardy and Gregory and getting Lee back is a lot of talent) is beyond me. I don't buy that it's because we had a team built to play with a lead. I just don't know what's going on there, honestly. And I'm not sure anybody does.

Marinelli is being asked to run a m2m defense and even if you go all the way back to their Vikings days he and Kiffin are known as zone innovators. He's not running his defense and is making do with what he has. Claiborne and Carr need to be replaced or Marinelli needs to be replaced. Looking at the market, zone corners are not the hard ones to find; we still have Scandrick. I say replace the two corners and let Marinelli run his defense. Defense isn't bad though despite unfavorable conditions.

 

[CATCH17]

So we are making changes all game long but yet every thing appears the same and they just don't work?

We do what we do and it's part of the reason we have to take risks on players like Hardy because we won't scheme differently.

We just gotta hope our guy beats their guy and when it doesn't happen the next step is just get better at technique. Basic, basic, and more basic.

 

[texbumthelife]

Sure. I have no doubt that there are all kinds problems over in that environment. That is far cry from calling for any particular man's job and other such retribution.

It's not retribution. There is no need for you to be defensive. It's accountability. This staff has tried to create a false image of accountability for their players (Corey White for example) yet we have seen no such accountability for the coaches.

 

[Idgit]

Well I agree but I look around the league every week and most teams are in games.

Being in games is the bare minimum in today's NFL.

Not a lot of blowouts happening.

About half the games are decided by 7 points or less. About half of those by 3 points or less. So, yeah, that's a lot of close games. That's what the league wants.

What it means, though, is that the line between 12-4 and 4-12 is thin. A great coach can make a huge difference. But so can things like not having your QB for 13 games. Or not getting turnovers. My point is, you have to be pretty careful figuring out what it is exactly that's tipping over your canoe. I'm a huge proponent of having stability in terms of drafting and player development, and I think you need a special guy to work well with Jerry Jones for a long period of time. That's why I want to see this coach succeed. Or at least, I definitely don't want to make a change at HC just because 'somebody has to pay' for a season where the franchise QB broke two collarbones and we couldn't overcome it on the field despite being in the exact position to do so 5 of the 7 weeks in question.

 

[texbumthelife]

Marinelli is being asked to run a m2m defense and even if you go all the way back to their Vikings days he and Kiffin are known as zone innovators. He's not running his defense and is making do with what he has. Claiborne and Carr need to be replaced or Marinelli needs to be replaced. Looking at the market, zone corners are not the hard ones to find; we still have Scandrick. I say replace the two corners and let Marinelli run his defense. Defense isn't bad though despite unfavorable conditions.

Agreed with this 100%. As I have said in other posts, we may not like how he is calling games, but you can't ask the guy to change any more than he already has. He is completely out of his comfort zone.

 

[Idgit]

Marinelli is being asked to run a m2m defense and even if you go all the way back to their Vikings days he and Kiffin are known as zone innovators. He's not running his defense and is making do with what he has. Claiborne and Carr need to be replaced or Marinelli needs to be replaced. Looking at the market, zone corners are not the hard ones to find; we still have Scandrick. I say replace the two corners and let Marinelli run his defense. Defense isn't bad though despite unfavorable conditions.

Yeah, the man coverage bit is the one obvious factor in the takeaway department, and we saw v. Tampa what a bit more zone could do. Still, though, we did a nice job of of it last year (7th in the league). We only lost Scandrick from that team, and now we're last in the league in interceptions. That's with adding Hardy and Gregory. I know we're not putting teams in positions to have to force throws, and maybe that's really all there is to it. That just seems too simple an explanation.

Then again, I guess we saw in the MIA game what playing with a lead late in the fourth can do for a defense's ability to pressure. Maybe it really does all come down to just losing the franchise guy in week 2.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Just on the subject of the route designs, I have been following it all season very closely through the All-22 and if they have "varied the depth of routes and breaks" then it hasn't shown up on the field. There is a reason our receivers seem to get very little separation. It's not because they're all awful, obviously. It's because their routes are predictable, generally on down and distance and where they line up. For example, the X receiver or split end receiver, is almost always going deep or running a 10 yard hook. I would say with great confidence, that this is the case 75% of the time. That's why our X receiver generally has little to no separation. Even defensive backs have come out and commented on how predictable the routes are.

In the traditional formation, the SE lines up to the left. The WR progression goes from right to left for a right handed QB because of body alignment. You are aware of the situation at QB and how they were having problems getting through their reads? I think you are misattributing cause here.

As for your 75%, we both know you pulled that out of air. You did no counting. I also know that all of his receivers complement those routes with in and outs run at varying levels. I get that the 9 and comeback are also staples but your evaluation seems to completely ignore what Linehan tries to do. Most of the completions that we get from the position are from those in routes.

 

[Idgit]

So we are making changes all game long but yet every thing appears the same and they just don't work?

What's your favorite flavor for spicing up a turd soup? Would salt make it taste better? How about a little red pepper? Oh, how about something exotic...cardamom, maybe?

It's still turd soup. Yes, we're constantly making adjustments. No, a lot of them don't work when you've got Dez out and the other guys are just doubling Beasley and Witten depending on the situation. The QBs talk all the time (well, Tony does, at least) about the adjustments they make in games. MIA, for example, changed up their coverages on them and showed them stuff they hadn't seen before that Tony talked about adjusting to. CAR adjusted, too, once they got a big enough lead and we stopped throwing across the middle into the cover 2 looks and started taking advantage of what they were giving us on the perimeter once Tony went down.

I don't know what specific adjustments we've made, and I haven't the heart to go look at the all-22 right now to try to guess. But I do know that all teams are constantly making adjustments throughout the games. Fans notice the adjustments that work. But none of them work if your players aren't able to make plays when it matters.

I don't think the issue on offense has been with our adjustments, no. I think it's with our personnel. Defense might be another story, but then, the defense hasn't been nearly as bad as the offense, either.

 

[CATCH17]

About half the games are decided by 7 points or less. About half of those by 3 points or less. So, yeah, that's a lot of close games. That's what the league wants.

What it means, though, is that the line between 12-4 and 4-12 is thin. A great coach can make a huge difference. But so can things like not having your QB for 13 games. Or not getting turnovers. My point is, you have to be pretty careful figuring out what it is exactly that's tipping over your canoe. I'm a huge proponent of having stability in terms of drafting and player development, and I think you need a special guy to work well with Jerry Jones for a long period of time. That's why I want to see this coach succeed. Or at least, I definitely don't want to make a change at HC just because 'somebody has to pay' for a season where the franchise QB broke two collarbones and we couldn't overcome it on the field despite being in the exact position to do so 5 of the 7 weeks in question.

How do we know if he is working well with Jerry or not?

How do we not know that he isn't a complete puppet?


I'm not sure Jason was all aboard with hiring Linehan.

I'm not sure he was all aboard signing a lot of these guys on the team.

I don't know that he wanted to fire Rob Ryan for Monte Kiffin.


This RKG and process malarkey have run it course with me.

Even when we're good it's not because of anything he is doing.

 

[Miller]

I know for a fact that he adjusts the depths of cuts from his WR. The in and out cut are installed in the beginning of camp and I understand at least that process. I watch him do it and then I see his opponents adjusting the depth of their coverage drops. I look for where they start and their timing to stop their backpedal.

As for the route tree not being varied. What route do they not run? I'm not sure how to respond to that recollection of yours. And if the opponent calls man and you flood a zone that doesn't mean it was a bad call even if it doesn't work. WR also run the wrong routes and our guys quite often don't make the right adjustments. I think that entire dynamic has a lot more to do with the OC and the QB than Garrett. Garrett doesn't even call the plays remember?

I never said that you were all in on Sturm, I was just speaking to the point. Sturm has flip flopped based on record from what I can tell. You don't deny that.

I don't want to belabor our debate. I like it. It's the fun part of this board but at some point we just have to admit we see things differently and I hate being a poster that will beat you over the head with the same talking points. BUT as far as JG not calling plays..I thought he got "his guys" in here though to run his system. All I heard in the 8-8 years was that Jerry forced assts on him. Then I heard JG got his running buddies to help. So even stripped of everything, it should still be his system I'd believe. And I believe that practice prep would still fall under his job description. I just think its unfathomable that you can go 7 games in the NFL without a win when there are scrub teams that don't get near that futility yearly. It speaks a lot to me! Thanks for the talk Fuzzy!

 

[Dave_in-NC]

What's your favorite flavor for spicing up a turd soup? Would salt make it taste better? How about a little red pepper? Oh, how about something exotic...cardamom, maybe?

It's still turd soup. Yes, we're constantly making adjustments. No, a lot of them don't work when you've got Dez out and the other guys are just doubling Beasley and Witten depending on the situation. The QBs talk all the time (well, Tony does, at least) about the adjustments they make in games. MIA, for example, changed up their coverages on them and showed them stuff they hadn't seen before that Tony talked about adjusting to. CAR adjusted, too, once they got a big enough lead and we stopped throwing across the middle into the cover 2 looks and started taking advantage of what they were giving us on the perimeter once Tony went down.

I don't know what specific adjustments we've made, and I haven't the heart to go look at the all-22 right now to try to guess. But I do know that all teams are constantly making adjustments throughout the games. Fans notice the adjustments that work. But none of them work if your players aren't able to make plays when it matters.

I don't think the issue on offense has been with our adjustments, no. I think it's with our personnel. Defense might be another story, but then, the defense hasn't been nearly as bad as the offense, either.

I like lentil soup. Home made by me. Can you FedEx some of that turd soup my way?
The adjustments made with our subpar (subs) being made are to keep every thing with in ten yards. So far it hasn't worked seven times.
That's seven weeks to come up with a new wrinkle or two. I would think a genius could do it. Apparently I'm wrong.

PS: I can give you my lentil soup recipe. Sounds way better than what your eating.