The Case for Firing Jason Garrett and the coaching staff **merged**

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I said:



You're right, that was convoluted, I apologize. I simply meant slants to the Z in base alignment. When I said "or" I meant it in the sense as "otherwise known as". It was a repetitive.

I only made the comment about it being personal because terms like "complaint" and "retribution" which have a decidedly personal connotation. I know you're a good poster and know your stuff.

Well if I attributed retribution to you I withdraw it with apologies as it is clearly not the case.

 

[Alexander]

I do find it interesting that Alex took issue with the strawman 'forced.' Seems he is intent on keeping that blame where he wants it.

Your implications were that he was "being asked" and should be "allowed".

Big difference between saying that and saying he is working the best with what he has.

And the front office didn't give him anything, he pretty much inherited almost the lot of them when he took the job.

"These guys are really good man corners. They can go up and get you and press you. They really add something to the defensive package."

Does not sound like someone being asked to do anything he did not want to do.

He's had three years to make his preference for zone corners known, if he had them to begin with. Sounds to me, he's fine with the situation.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Your implications were that he was "being asked" and should be "allowed".

Big difference between saying that and saying he is working the best with what he has.

And the front office didn't give him anything, he pretty much inherited almost the lot of them when he took the job.



Does not sound like someone being asked to do anything he did not want to do.

He's had three years to make his preference for zone corners known, if he had them to begin with. Sounds to me, he's fine with the situation.

Ask implies a choice and nothing more. Allowed would imply the choice was not his and as pointed out by others antithetical. Use my words not yours. I didn't speak a whit as to what is or isn't allowed. Seems on your mind though.

And even then so what? This the part where you start saying I'm making excuses? It's bad enough that you have to turn that mindset to the team but it becomes a lot worse when you do it to your fellow poster.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's not retribution. There is no need for you to be defensive. It's accountability. This staff has tried to create a false image of accountability for their players (Corey White for example) yet we have seen no such accountability for the coaches.

Accountability for what? The record? To what end? Cutting fringe players has a psychological effect that can be positive. Regime change has a different effect. Unless the team melts down like the GB game where Jason Witten quit playing for Wade I think we should ride the season out with Garrett at the very least.

This comes down to the entire notion of fault again though. Ultimately **** can and does happen and doesn't have to be to someone's credit or fault. I don't hold the ethic of never judging others but I am very reluctant to do so through such a translucent medium as TV, radio, and the interwebs nonetheless. I also still have to take issue with oversimplifying an organization as expansive as the Cowboys down to any one man. If you have to do that then I'm not sure he is the right target either.

I try to approach this from the vantage of improving the team and to look to see where the team needs to do better. Talented speed on offense and defense I think will help more than most scheme changes you can present. If the list of candidates improved over a hope for Payton or a retread like Chuckie then I could change my mind on that.

I don't see that happening though because Romo is a limiting factor on the team's options. Payton is a dream but a damn pleasant one because he both has a history of developing All Pro qb and working with Romo. I don't see anyone else that fits well like that.

Are you uncomfortable/think it's enough of an upgrade with Garrett as coach to the point where you would give a pick to NO for Payton?

 

[birdwells1]

Yeah, the man coverage bit is the one obvious factor in the takeaway department, and we saw v. Tampa what a bit more zone could do. Still, though, we did a nice job of of it last year (7th in the league). We only lost Scandrick from that team, and now we're last in the league in interceptions. That's with adding Hardy and Gregory. I know we're not putting teams in positions to have to force throws, and maybe that's really all there is to it. That just seems too simple an explanation.

Then again, I guess we saw in the MIA game what playing with a lead late in the fourth can do for a defense's ability to pressure. Maybe it really does all come down to just losing the franchise guy in week 2.

I think that losing your franchise qb is huge for any team because the drop off from him is usually substantial but 0-7? Really? If you can't win at least 2 of those games (N.O. and TB) then your coaching ability has to come into question. Was Romo masking your deficiencies as a coach? I really think that Romo being out really gives this organization an opportunity to evaluate everyone around him to see if they are the type of coaches and players that we need going forward.

 

[Idgit]

I think that losing your franchise qb is huge for any team because the drop off from him is usually substantial but 0-7? Really? If you can't win at least 2 of those games (N.O. and TB) then your coaching ability has to come into question. Was Romo masking your deficiencies as a coach? I really think that Romo being out really gives this organization an opportunity to evaluate everyone around him to see if they are the type of coaches and players that we need going forward.

Why two games? A team losing 7 games, but 5 of them literally down to one play not made by a player...is that worse from a coaching perspective than a team getting blown out 5 times in a row but having two plays where the WRs didn't drop the ball or didn't push off? I'm not sure, either way, but I think it's a legitimate question. I'm not talking from a standings perspective here, where you're obviously going to need every win you can get. I mean just in terms of evaluating the job the coaches have done.

Because Romo's not just a franchise QB, he was the most effective QB in the whole league last season. And the drop off from him to the next guy was significant. Is that the same thing as going from Manning to Osweiller this season? Or from Luck to Hasselbeck? It's not really the same thing.

And then, might we have won some of those 7 games if the defense hadn't been setting precedents for a lack of taking the ball away from the bad guys? How much of that is fairly on the head coach? How much on the player, or on the coordinator? There's enough blame to go around, for sure, when the team's not winning, and the HC is the guy in charge, so it's his responsibility to fix it. But does it follow that it's his fault?

Romo obviously makes everybody look better. But he's no different from any other really good QB in that regard. If you have a good QB, you're a good coach. If you don't, you're a bad one or on borrowed time.

 

[ufcrules1]

I think JG is a horrifically bad coach but at the same time I know he doesn't get to fully control his team thanks to Jerry. So it can be difficult to judge him fairly. With that said, he took the job knowing he wouldn't be able to fully control the team and his average record of 8-8 over the last 5 years doesn't cut it. So he should be fired.. but it won't happen because Jerry loves his puppets.

 

[texbumthelife]

Accountability for what? The record? To what end? Cutting fringe players has a psychological effect that can be positive. Regime change has a different effect. Unless the team melts down like the GB game where Jason Witten quit playing for Wade I think we should ride the season out with Garrett at the very least.

This comes down to the entire notion of fault again though. Ultimately **** can and does happen and doesn't have to be to someone's credit or fault. I don't hold the ethic of never judging others but I am very reluctant to do so through such a translucent medium as TV, radio, and the interwebs nonetheless. I also still have to take issue with oversimplifying an organization as expansive as the Cowboys down to any one man. If you have to do that then I'm not sure he is the right target either.

I try to approach this from the vantage of improving the team and to look to see where the team needs to do better. Talented speed on offense and defense I think will help more than most scheme changes you can present. If the list of candidates improved over a hope for Payton or a retread like Chuckie then I could change my mind on that.

I don't see that happening though because Romo is a limiting factor on the team's options. Payton is a dream but a damn pleasant one because he both has a history of developing All Pro qb and working with Romo. I don't see anyone else that fits well like that.

Are you uncomfortable/think it's enough of an upgrade with Garrett as coach to the point where you would give a pick to NO for Payton?

All good points.

I look at it from the perspective of, nothing that has transpired this season has suddenly created any new issues, all it has done is highlight them. The exact same issues that plagued this team through three 8-8 seasons and last season, are what is ultimately hindering the team this season. The injuries have simply compounded them and/or made them more obvious.

Of course in a situation like team sports there is never one person to blame, however there still has to be accountability. Jason Garrett is absolutely culpable in the dumpster fire of this season. To say anything else is purely making excuses. His offense. His assistants. For the most part, his roster.

Speaking of the roster, how many years can we continue to blame the exact same things, resort to the same excuses and see the same results, before we change course. This offense is immensely talented. You've got hall of fame caliber players at multiple positions. When do we begin to question the system and or coaching, if not now?

Im not sure I would go after Payton. Personally, I would go after Adam Gase, but I am sure I am in the very small minority there. At least that guy would come in with a proven track record as an offensive coordinator, which is already more than Garrett has.

I sincerely have absolutely no faith in Garret. None. I don't think he is the only culpable person in the organization, not by a long shot, but that doesn't mean he is untouchable and beyond reproach.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

All good points.

I look at it from the perspective of, nothing that has transpired this season has suddenly created any new issues, all it has done is highlight them. The exact same issues that plagued this team through three 8-8 seasons and last season, are what is ultimately hindering the team this season. The injuries have simply compounded them and/or made them more obvious.

Of course in a situation like team sports there is never one person to blame, however there still has to be accountability. Jason Garrett is absolutely culpable in the dumpster fire of this season. To say anything else is purely making excuses. His offense. His assistants. For the most part, his roster.

Speaking of the roster, how many years can we continue to blame the exact same things, resort to the same excuses and see the same results, before we change course. This offense is immensely talented. You've got hall of fame caliber players at multiple positions. When do we begin to question the system and or coaching, if not now?

Im not sure I would go after Payton. Personally, I would go after Adam Gase, but I am sure I am in the very small minority there. At least that guy would come in with a proven track record as an offensive coordinator, which is already more than Garrett has.

I sincerely have absolutely no faith in Garret. None. I don't think he is the only culpable person in the organization, not by a long shot, but that doesn't mean he is untouchable and beyond reproach.

I can understand the appeal of a guy like Gase. His work with Manning and Cutler speaks for itself. I would just worry that Jerry and his kids would walk all over him as a rookie head coach. I like Payton because he like Parcells and Jimmy before him can control the organization with the skins on the walls to lend instant credibility. I would hope that they would keep Will McClay and the scouts but Payton is asking out from Benson's thumb because of control if I'm not mistaken.

 

[cowboyblue22]

I think that if the cowboys don't win any games over the next five then I truly believe that Jason garrett has problems holding on to his job when the cowboys are really finally out jerry and Stephen are really going to look at every one on the staff Stephen said yesterday that they cant use the injury excuse so I believe that if he don't figure out a way to at least win couple games I think his job is on the line. They really put of lot resources into this year they were really high on how good they thought this team was.

 

[Frosty]

Why two games? A team losing 7 games, but 5 of them literally down to one play not made by a player...is that worse from a coaching perspective than a team getting blown out 5 times in a row but having two plays where the WRs didn't drop the ball or didn't push off? I'm not sure, either way, but I think it's a legitimate question. I'm not talking from a standings perspective here, where you're obviously going to need every win you can get. I mean just in terms of evaluating the job the coaches have done.

Because Romo's not just a franchise QB, he was the most effective QB in the whole league last season. And the drop off from him to the next guy was significant. Is that the same thing as going from Manning to Osweiller this season? Or from Luck to Hasselbeck? It's not really the same thing.

And then, might we have won some of those 7 games if the defense hadn't been setting precedents for a lack of taking the ball away from the bad guys? How much of that is fairly on the head coach? How much on the player, or on the coordinator? There's enough blame to go around, for sure, when the team's not winning, and the HC is the guy in charge, so it's his responsibility to fix it. But does it follow that it's his fault?

Romo obviously makes everybody look better. But he's no different from any other really good QB in that regard. If you have a good QB, you're a good coach. If you don't, you're a bad one or on borrowed time.

those one plays differences you write about came against mediocre teams.......teams that are the same caliber as the current Cowboys...The Saints 4-7, or Tampa...5-6 one play Says a whole HECK of alot. Why cant they make a play against teams with losing records....its not like they were ONE play away from beating the Panthers or Patriots.....Did any Coach...dial up a play to.help the team out... or take a risk and make a call.....or were they all standing on the sidelines watching.... calling the same old predictable game we see every week.......What do the Cowboys always do on 1st down..Run or Pass... predictable...

 

[texbumthelife]

I can understand the appeal of a guy like Gase. His work with Manning and Cutler speaks for itself. I would just worry that Jerry and his kids would walk all over him as a rookie head coach. I like Payton because he like Parcells and Jimmy before him can control the organization with the skins on the walls to lend instant credibility. I would hope that they would keep Will McClay and the scouts but Payton is asking out from Benson's thumb because of control if I'm not mistaken.

Don't get me wrong, if bringing in Payton meant Garrett was out the door I am 100% all for it. I think Garrett has a legitimate shot to be a great GM, I do not however think he's much of a coach.

 

[Blitzen32]

What ifs and moral victories are for losers.

Yup. Which is the why some on this board preach the whole "if a couple plays broke our way" mantra. It's the Garrett way.

Well, that and throwing anyone (including your own brother) under the bus to save your orange rear end.

 

[Doomsday]

Was listening a sports talk show today and they had Rodney Harrison on. He said, "talent doesn't mean anything if you aren't prepared to play".

The first thing that came to my mind was that sounds just like the Dallas Cowboys. JG does not have this team ready to complete at a high level.

 

[SilverStarCowboy]

They suck and have proven to suck in the past, they need help, way too much help. Bring in experience, a Payton or Gruden who have proven that they can actually run a Team.

 

[Redball Express]

I'm usually the last guy to blame the coaches. This team is not talented, nor well coached. I've come to grips with the Cowboys being mediocre. years like 2007, 2009, and 2014 are outliers. There's a reason the Cowboys are now mentioned with the Lions, Browns, Commanders, and those teams. It starts at the top. Jerry is comfortable with Jason, that's his handpicked coach. It will take another season or two of a trainwreck like this for Jerry to make a change. Then he will hire another coach he is "comfortable" with. Rinse, repeat. Never ending cycle with this organization. Love this team to death, but extremely frustrating and disheartening.

It is a tough assignment being a Cowboys fan.

I will never give up on the team but 20+ years without anything more than a division win followed by losing has grown tiresome.

I don't blame the coaches or the owner..

I look at the players and their lack of really being a team.

The players have to want it and they have to make the sacrifices and have the drive.

It's not Garrett..it hasn't been Phillips or Parcells.

It's been our inability to get a group of core players on both sides of the ball that can be built around.

The era of FA has not been something we have mastered.

Our ownership continues to try to recreate the old 90's team with guys like Garrett and it's not working.

We need urgently some fresh leadership. The game has changed but we as a franchise have not.

The greatest change we ever saw was when Jimmy Johnson come with his entire coaching staff from the UM. It was a complete transplant of culture.

We have drifted back since those days.

I don't know if that can be done again but what is happening and been happening is not successful for any length of time.

I think we need coaches that are successful in college and can bring a new evaluation of what it takes.

That's my feelings. There are many out there with different opinions and I respect them all..

But something is very wrong with us and the rest of the league knows it.

We as fans just don't want to see it.

 

[dallasdave]

He's meant to be a Dallas Cowboy and will retire as one.

Just hope he gets a couple of Super Bowl wins before he retires.