I do not see any difference between that play and the Dez play in 2014 *merged*

[KJJ]

Last word addict aren't you?

I ignored several of your posts but you kept coming. You instigate always trying to pull me back in. When these topics start you’re fine in the beginning but as the pages go on you become increasingly frustrated and before you know it this stops becoming about the topic and it starts becoming about me. That’s been your MO from the beginning. Your pattern is documented in this thread. Percy is able to endure this and maintain himself but you can’t. You don’t like me or my opinions and we get it so the best thing to do is don’t read my posts. They get under your skin and you start losing control of your emotions.

Dude, I’m being honest with you. You need to sit back and take a close look at how you come off as the pages go by. You put so much time into this it wears on you and my opinions push you over the edge. I’m here to talk football with mature adults. If you can’t handle me or my opinions either put me on ignore or don’t respond to me. Nothing good ever comes from our discussions because you continue to lose your cool. There’s only a handful of posters on this board that can go back-and-forth with me like an adult and you’re not one of them.

 

[blindzebra]

I ignored several of your posts but you kept coming. You instigate always trying to pull me back in. When these topics start you’re fine in the beginning but as the pages go on you become increasingly frustrated and before you know it this stops becoming about the topic and it starts becoming about me. That’s been your MO from the beginning. Your pattern is documented in this thread. Percy is able to endure this and maintain himself but you can’t. You don’t like me or my opinions and we get it so the best thing to do is don’t read my posts. They get under your skin and you start losing control of your emotions.

Dude, I’m being honest with you. You need to sit back and take a close look at how you come off as the pages go by. You put so much time into this it wears on you and my opinions push you over the edge. I’m here to talk football with mature adults. If you can’t handle me or my opinions either put me on ignore or don’t respond to me. Nothing good ever comes from our discussions because you continue to lose your cool. There’s only a handful of posters on this board that can go back-and-forth with me like an adult and you’re not one of them.

I have no patience for people who when confronted with irrefutable proof continue to post the same exact arguments that have been crushed by the facts. I made two posts in the first 30 pages of this thread before I joined the fray because you and a few others were attacking other posters who were presenting factual support for the catch. You along with these other few came into this thread for one reason, and one reason only...to stir the pot. Replying with condescension, repeating the exact same thing over and over without showing any evidence to support it, and when confronted with actual rule and case book support, the only reply is it doesn't matter. You have some nerve calling out anyone for forum behavior when your entire point of taking part in this discussion was to insight negative reactions.

 

[KJJ]

I have no patience for people who when confronted with irrefutable proof continue to post the same exact arguments that have been crushed by the facts. I made two posts in the first 30 pages of this thread before I joined the fray because you and a few others were attacking other posters who were presenting factual support for the catch. You along with these other few came into this thread for one reason, and one reason only...to stir the pot. Replying with condescension, repeating the exact same thing over and over without showing any evidence to support it, and when confronted with actual rule and case book support, the only reply is it doesn't matter. You have some nerve calling out anyone for forum behavior when your entire point of taking part in this discussion was to insight negative reactions.

I wasn’t attacking anyone. Disagreeing with someone’s opinion isn’t attacking them. You can’t even decipher that? You just admitted you have no patience for people and when you lose your patience you start attacking them personally with insults. You’re the one who stirs the pot by waging personal attacks. I enter these threads to try and be a voice of reason. To try and explain a rule that no one likes. I’ve been following the NFL for 40+ years and do a lot of research before I post opinions. This isn’t my first rodeo pal.

My opinions are well thought out. Not everyone is going to agree with each other, that’s life but there’s ways of handling a differing of opinion in an adult manner and you seem to be incapable of doing that. Stop looking to instigate. You just enter these threads to toss insults at those who don’t see things your way. Grow up!

 

[blindzebra]

I wasn’t attacking anyone. Disagreeing with someone’s opinion isn’t attacking them. You can’t even decipher that? You just admitted you have no patience for people and when you lose your patience you start attacking them personally with insults. You’re the one who stirs the pot by waging personal attacks. I enter these threads to try and be a voice of reason. To try and explain a rule that no one likes. I’ve been following the NFL for 40+ years and do a lot of research before I post opinions. This isn’t my first rodeo pal.

My opinions are well thought out. Not everyone is going to agree with each other, that’s life but there’s ways of handling a differing of opinion in an adult manner and you seem to be incapable of doing that. Stop looking to instigate. You just enter these threads to toss insults at those who don’t see things your way. Grow up!

I believe that the truth outweighs being nice, and when you live in a world where those who speak the loudest, and keep repeating lies eventually get others to believe them, I don't believe in standing quietly in the corner watching it happen. And just an FYI, talking down to people like you do in nearly every post is an attack. And when people like to say it wasn't me doing it, it usually was.

 

[gmoney112]

Hadn't read this thread yet but seems to have ended just about how I expected.

 

[DogFace]

The element of time is only a factor when a player doesn't perform a act common to the game after having gained control and getting 2 feet down.

​

In the case play, the lunge is the act common to the game. Time isn't considered because the act itself satisfies the requirement. Possession with 2 feet is not an act common to the game and cannot satisfy the requirement. Consequently, possession with 2 feet cannot satisfy the element of time in instances when a player does not perform an act common to the game.

It's pretty clear. C must come after A and B, therefore C cannot be comprised of A and B.

Agree or disagree with the example, it doesn't matter. The rule allows for both outcomes because the determining factor in a real game is whether or not a single official believes the player completed the process before going to the ground or went to the ground prior to completing the process.

There are many aspects of the going to the ground situation, what the actual requirements for a completed pass are is not one of them. The requirements are clearly stated.

The case play says the lunge is not part of the completion in the example.

 

[DogFace]

Hadn't read this thread yet but seems to have ended just about how I expected.

What with @KJJ attempting to ruin it with one of his infamous rants about others attacking him when they are reacting mildly to another of his condescending rants?

The real crime is a person like him, with the character traits he exhibits, shouldn’t be able to be condescending, but I must to give it to him. He somehow pulls it off.

 

[DogFace]

I wasn’t attacking anyone. Disagreeing with someone’s opinion isn’t attacking them. You can’t even decipher that? You just admitted you have no patience for people and when you lose your patience you start attacking them personally with insults. You’re the one who stirs the pot by waging personal attacks. I enter these threads to try and be a voice of reason. To try and explain a rule that no one likes. I’ve been following the NFL for 40+ years and do a lot of research before I post opinions. This isn’t my first rodeo pal.

My opinions are well thought out. Not everyone is going to agree with each other, that’s life but there’s ways of handling a differing of opinion in an adult manner and you seem to be incapable of doing that. Stop looking to instigate. You just enter these threads to toss insults at those who don’t see things your way. Grow up!

Voice of reason?

You can’t be serious. Once again you’ve attempted to ruin a thread by making it about you.

I’m almost sure I’ve forced you to ignore me again(for like the 5th time). I’m trying to instruct others how to accomplish this cherished feat as well.

 

[DandyDon52]

Catch, three steps, dives and the ball pops out.

1 difference, in this game he
Had possession as he or the ball
Crossed the goal line.
Dez came down outside,
Goal line.
It was a td before ball came out.
They also said he was a runner

 

[WinnipegBoy22]

 

[percyhoward]

Well the closest thing to a definitive truth you'll get is the NFL and the folks who actually get paid to understand the rules and their intent.

So try taking your argument to them. They made the call. They've made similar calls since.

The ones who don’t have a clue are the ones who keep arguing a rule that was confirmed by the league to be the correct call.

That's called an appeal to authority. The problem is, the competence of those in authority is the very thing in question.

Pereira is one of those who got paid to understand the rules and their intent, and he now says "Let’s have all of us who had any part in tinkering with the catch rule since 1999 admit that we got off track."

Where they got off track was when they stopped asking "what is a catch?" and started asking "what is going to the ground?"

 

[Hoofbite]

The case play says the lunge is not part of the completion in the example.

Then the brace is part C and the lunge comes after.

Either way, time was not satisfied by possession and two feet. It can’t be because that’s the rule.

 

[percyhoward]

According to how the rule was and is, Dez didn't catch the ball.

Should the rule be changed to allow it to be catch. Sure, why not.

The standard for becoming a runner was already changed. In 2015.

In 2014, that was a catch. Beginning in 2015, when the standard was "upright long enough," it would not have been a catch.

 

[DogFace]

Then the brace is part C and the lunge comes after.

Either way, time was not satisfied by possession and two feet. It can’t be because that’s the rule.

So the case book is wrong?

 

[percyhoward]

It was officiated the same way as the Calvin Johnson play that happened 4 years earlier.

What football move were you expecting Johnson to make in the end zone?

 

[percyhoward]

The league has admitted numerous officiating mistakes over the years.

What do you think Pereira's doing now?

 

[DogFace]

Then the brace is part C and the lunge comes after.

Either way, time was not satisfied by possession and two feet. It can’t be because that’s the rule.

Also, it wasn’t.

It was satisfied by him moving the ball from his shoulder and two hands on the right side of his body to his his left hand solely(on his left side).

From the 2014 rule book: maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).


I feel it reasonable to assume he could have pitched the ball. That is, he had time and the ability if he wanted when he moved to ball into one hand.

 

[BlindFaith]

What football move were you expecting Johnson to make in the end zone?

Maintaining control of the ball through contacting the ground. Not fumbling a ball is a football move. And it satisfies the time element.

 

[percyhoward]

Go back to opening day 2015 against the Giants. Dez went up after a ball in the endzone battling a defender. He caught the ball but was going to the ground and once again he’s he ball came loose. However the ball never touched the ground but by the time Dez reestablished possession his elbow was OB and the TD that was called on the field was overturned.

The 2014 rule was based on the football move, which the player could make while falling. He could become a runner while falling.

The 2015-17 rule is based on "upright long enough," which means he can't become a runner while falling.

This was the Calvin Johnson play. It makes no difference if the receiver is in the endzone or the field of play if they’re going to the ground they must complete the catch process. The ball must survive the ground.

Under the old rule, if the player went to the ground in the act of catching the pass, the ball must survive the ground. If the player held the ball long enough after control and two feet down, he was no longer in the act of catching the pass. Dez did that, James did that (although under the current rule, it didn't matter), and you could also argue that Johnson did that. The difference with Johnson is that the call involved much more subjectivity.

In the field of play, the football move was the act that proved the player had met the time requirement. In the end zone, there can be no football move (Hoofbite's exception of warding off impending contact notwithstanding). So with the Johnson play, it was up to the officials' judgment as to whether he'd met the time requirement.

 

[percyhoward]

Maintaining control of the ball through contacting the ground. Not fumbling a ball is a football move. And it satisfies the time element.

But first you'd have to assume he couldn't have made the move before that point.

Another way to say it is, you'd have to assume that if he were in the field of play instead of the end zone, no football move would have occurred before he touched the ball to the ground.