I do not see any difference between that play and the Dez play in 2014 *merged*

[KJJ]

Honest question, if you are so tired with the subject how come you have more posts in this thread then anyone else? Yeah, I'm the one instigating things.

I’ll guarantee I don’t have more posts on this topic than Percy. lol I’m tired of arguing with the same posters that I’ve been arguing with for the past three years on this topic. I have no problem discussing this topic with posters that I haven’t discussed this issue with before.

 

[MarcusRock]

Some people want to know why you think Blandino even looked for a football move if it didn’t matter.

Maybe because the media (and Blandino for that matter) are smarter than people give them credit for. Perhaps the media had the case play example in mind when they questioned him. So he answered that, answered the elbow being down, answered the 3 steps, all of it. Same for Pereira. They both answered consistent with the rules from where I sit. Most people just don't like the answers. I love my team but I draw the line at bending reality to make something fit the ideal situation. Call me old fashioned but whining is not a good look.

Now, you think I'll get my answer about whether there are observable acts an official can see that demonstrates if someone has "clearly become a runner" per the 2015 rules verbiage?

 

[KJJ]

Maybe because the media (and Blandino for that matter) are smarter than people give them credit for. Perhaps the media had the case play example in mind when they questioned him. So he answered that, answered the elbow being down, answered the 3 steps, all of it. Same for Pereira. They both answered consistent with the rules from where I sit. Most people just don't like the answers. I love my team but I draw the line at bending reality to make something fit the ideal situation. Call me old fashioned but whining is not a good look.

Now, you think I'll get my answer about whether there are observable acts an official can see that demonstrates if someone has "clearly become a runner" per the 2015 rules verbiage?

Many have made an issue of Blandino’s comment that he looked for a football move even though Dez was going to the ground and a football move wouldn’t have mattered. To properly officiate a play on replay you have to break down the play piece piece and look at every detail.

 

[nathanlt]

Maybe because the media (and Blandino for that matter) are smarter than people give them credit for. Perhaps the media had the case play example in mind when they questioned him. So he answered that, answered the elbow being down, answered the 3 steps, all of it. Same for Pereira. They both answered consistent with the rules from where I sit. Most people just don't like the answers. I love my team but I draw the line at bending reality to make something fit the ideal situation. Call me old fashioned but whining is not a good look.

Now, you think I'll get my answer about whether there are observable acts an official can see that demonstrates if someone has "clearly become a runner" per the 2015 rules verbiage?

Not many can spell verbiage correctly, good job.

However, I disagree with everything else you've said. Respect.

Note: Dez is not subject to future rules, aka a playoff game in January 2015 is not subject to rules just going in effect that September.

 

[blindzebra]

In 2014 rule book: 8-1

Article 3 Completed or Intercepted Pass. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is
complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act
common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an
opponent, etc.).

Note 1: It is not necessary that he commit such an act, provided that he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.
Note 2: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must
lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession.

If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch.

Item 1: Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact
by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field
of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass
is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

The rule to illustrate a football move to become a runner in 2014:
Rule 3 section 25.2
(i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an
opponent, etc.). Note that it says etc. meaning that this is not an all inclusive list.

2015 rules:
ARTICLE 3. COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds: (a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and (b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and (c) maintains control of the ball after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, until he has clearly become a runner (see 3-2-7 Item 2).
Note: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch.

Item 1. Player Going to the Ground. A player is considered to be going to the ground if he does not remain upright long enough to demonstrate that he is clearly a runner. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

Here is 3-2-7:
A player becomes a runner when he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact of an opponent.

So in 2015 we have some changes, we get upright long enough to clearly become a runner, yet the ways you can become a runner shrinks. But Dean, I thought this was to clarify the catch rule? That is what you said, it was not a change just making it clearer.

2016:
ARTICLE 3. COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds: (a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and (b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and (c) maintains control of the ball after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, until he has the ball long enough to clearly become a runner. A player has the ball long enough to become a runner when, after his second foot is on the ground, he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact of an opponent, tucking the ball away, turning up field, or taking additional steps (see 3-2-7-Item 2).

Note: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch.

Item 1. Player Going to the Ground. A player is considered to be going to the ground if he does not remain upright long enough to demonstrate that he is clearly a runner. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

3-2-7:
A player has the ball long enough to clearly become a runner when, after his second foot is on the ground, he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact
of an opponent, tucking the ball away, turning up field, or taking additional steps.

In 2016 they add a few more items to 3-2-7, but we still have no clarification of what upright long enough means.

2017: Is identical to 2017

For fun here is 2012 and 2013:

Article 3 Completed or Intercepted Pass. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds: (a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and (b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and (c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).

Note 1: It is not necessary that he commit such an act, provided that he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.
Note 2: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch.

Item 1: Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

3-2-7 just says act common to the game.

And then you have this from the 2014 case book:

A.R. 8.12 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS
First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted
by B1. He goes to the ground as a result of the contact, gets his second foot down, and with the ball in his right
arm, he braces himself at the three-yard line with his left hand and simultaneously lunges forward toward the
goal line. When he lands in the end zone, the ball comes out.
Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The pass is complete. When the receiver hits the ground in the end
zone, it is the result of lunging forward after bracing himself at the three-yard line and is not part of the process of
the catch. Since the ball crossed the goal line, it is a touchdown. If the ball is short of the goal line, it is a catch,
and A2 is down by contact.

Note that there is nothing in those rules that says going to the ground takes precedence over the catch process prior to 2015.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

There’s no question I have one of the biggest post counts on this topic but I haven’t started any of these topics, I’ve only contributed. The main reason I have such a large post count on this issue is because I’m one of the few here who believe the overturn was correct, which has attracted a lot of responses my way. If I didn’t have the stance I did and didn’t respond to the many replies by Percy and others I wouldn’t have near the post count I have on this issue. A majority of my posts have been in defense of my views. I make one comment and it attracts a lot of responses.

That may be true but the point here is that you are engaging in topics that you identify as three years old. You are helping to fuel these discussions, which I have no problem with, but you gotta understand that you really can't cry Wolf and then also be the guy who is feeding the Wolf, so to speak.

 

[G2]

Apply, lather, rinse and repeat.

 

[MarcusRock]

In 2014 rule book: 8-1

Article 3 Completed or Intercepted Pass. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is
complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act
common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an
opponent, etc.).

Note 1: It is not necessary that he commit such an act, provided that he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.
Note 2: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must
lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession.

If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch.

Item 1: Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact
by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field
of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass
is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

The rule to illustrate a football move to become a runner in 2014:
Rule 3 section 25.2
(i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an
opponent, etc.). Note that it says etc. meaning that this is not an all inclusive list.

2015 rules:
ARTICLE 3. COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds: (a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and (b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and (c) maintains control of the ball after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, until he has clearly become a runner (see 3-2-7 Item 2).
Note: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch.

Item 1. Player Going to the Ground. A player is considered to be going to the ground if he does not remain upright long enough to demonstrate that he is clearly a runner. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

Here is 3-2-7:
A player becomes a runner when he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact of an opponent.

So in 2015 we have some changes, we get upright long enough to clearly become a runner, yet the ways you can become a runner shrinks. But Dean, I thought this was to clarify the catch rule? That is what you said, it was not a change just making it clearer.

2016:
ARTICLE 3. COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds: (a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and (b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and (c) maintains control of the ball after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, until he has the ball long enough to clearly become a runner. A player has the ball long enough to become a runner when, after his second foot is on the ground, he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact of an opponent, tucking the ball away, turning up field, or taking additional steps (see 3-2-7-Item 2).

Note: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch.

Item 1. Player Going to the Ground. A player is considered to be going to the ground if he does not remain upright long enough to demonstrate that he is clearly a runner. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

3-2-7:
A player has the ball long enough to clearly become a runner when, after his second foot is on the ground, he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact
of an opponent, tucking the ball away, turning up field, or taking additional steps.

In 2016 they add a few more items to 3-2-7, but we still have no clarification of what upright long enough means.

2017: Is identical to 2017

For fun here is 2012 and 2013:

Article 3 Completed or Intercepted Pass. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds: (a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and (b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and (c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).

Note 1: It is not necessary that he commit such an act, provided that he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.
Note 2: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch.

Item 1: Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

3-2-7 just says act common to the game.

And then you have this from the 2014 case book:

A.R. 8.12 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS
First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted
by B1. He goes to the ground as a result of the contact, gets his second foot down, and with the ball in his right
arm, he braces himself at the three-yard line with his left hand and simultaneously lunges forward toward the
goal line. When he lands in the end zone, the ball comes out.
Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The pass is complete. When the receiver hits the ground in the end
zone, it is the result of lunging forward after bracing himself at the three-yard line and is not part of the process of
the catch. Since the ball crossed the goal line, it is a touchdown. If the ball is short of the goal line, it is a catch,
and A2 is down by contact.

Note that there is nothing in those rules that says going to the ground takes precedence over the catch process prior to 2015.

Those were a lot of words whereas just typing "CONSPIRACY!" would have summed it up concisely.

 

[OmerV]

Did his foot contact the ground? Then that meets "maintaining control through contacting the ground" That's just plain English, right there in the rule book! NOTHING absurd about reading the words as they are written.

"Being on the ground" is not in the rule book, "Preparing to be on the ground" is not in the rule book, either. Neither is "ending up on the ground". So, one foot contacting the ground meets "maintaining control through contacting the ground" The rule is horribly written, and therefore does not justify taking the catch away.

Your last statement is the most absurd. First, second, third, 10th ... WHY STOP THERE?? Within 10,000 steps after catching a football and not getting tackled, but falling to the ground in celebration, the receiver gives the ball back to the referee. So, by that logic, nothing is a catch after the receiver gives the ball back to the official. The rule is insanity as you are trying to apply it.

And your whole premise is not written in the rule book, it is based on press conferences and verbal excuses by NFL spokesmen. Their confusion on the rule is deliberate, they'd rather have the general public throw up their hands in confusion, and let catches in the NFL have no standard whatsoever, they are whimsically taken away whenever the NFL feels like it.

However, by written rule, CATCH.

You are misunderstanding the rule. First of all, 1 foot does not constitute a catch in the NFL - 2 feet does. Secondly, the rule being discussed is "going to the ground", not merely touching it. That means the whole body is falling to the ground, not merely a foot touching the ground. In the NFL one foot doesn't complete a catch even if a player is not "going to the ground", and 1 foot is not enough to establish the receiver as a runner. In college one foot works, but it takes 2 in the NFL. If a foot simply contacting the ground, whether in the process of going to the ground or not, was all that was required there would be no controversy, but the standards for controlling the ball and establishing possession is part of the equation, and that's what makes the rule difficult.

 

[DogFace]

Maybe because the media (and Blandino for that matter) are smarter than people give them credit for. Perhaps the media had the case play example in mind when they questioned him. So he answered that, answered the elbow being down, answered the 3 steps, all of it. Same for Pereira. They both answered consistent with the rules from where I sit. Most people just don't like the answers. I love my team but I draw the line at bending reality to make something fit the ideal situation. Call me old fashioned but whining is not a good look.

Now, you think I'll get my answer about whether there are observable acts an official can see that demonstrates if someone has "clearly become a runner" per the 2015 rules verbiage?

The answers aren’t correct. Like others have said over and over. There was nothing in the rules saying the catch process couldn’t be completed while going to the ground and as long as it was competed it is a catch.

Do you see the irony in complaing(whining)about what you say is whining?

I don’t know what you’re asking about the 2015 rules. Explain it and I’ll try. Is it relevant to the Dez catch which was under the 2014 rules? Either way I’ll try to answer.

 

[OmerV]

(from Item 1) "If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent)..."

You jump back and forth from the language in the rule book to the example in the playbook depending on which suits you at the time. Here you are using the rule book language to dispute what you wan't to deny in the casebook example, and at other times you use the casebook example to deny what the rule book says.

We were discussing the casebook language, which says if a players is going to the ground 1 foot down only matters if that foot came down prior to the contact, then it was the contact that caused him to go to the ground.

But you want to drop the casebook language and go with the "with or without contact by an opponent" standard set out in the 2014 rule book, you are actually hurting your case with that as well because that language says it doesn't matter whether the player is going to the ground "with or without contact by an opponent", in either case he has to maintain possession all the way, or if he loses possession he has to regain it without the ball ever touching the ground.

 

[OmerV]

We have to understand the rule first though.

2015-17:
Item 1. Player Going to the Ground.
A player is considered to be going to the ground if he does not remain upright long enough to demonstrate that he is clearly a runner.
If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone.

2014:
Item 1: Player Going to the Ground.
If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone.

Right, so the question in 2014 is only whether one believes Dez was going to the ground or not. I believe he was going to the ground all the way - that there was never a point upon coming down from the jump that he was not going to the ground. I don't believe the fact feet touched the ground changes the fact he was going to the ground - in my mind there is no way those feet could keep him upright and in control. If you see that differently, that's a matter of perception, not rule.

 

[OmerV]

The answers aren’t correct. Like others have said over and over. There was nothing in the rules saying the catch process couldn’t be completed while going to the ground and as long as it was competed it is a catch.

Do you see the irony in complaing(whining)about what you say is whining?

I don’t know what you’re asking about the 2015 rules. Explain it and I’ll try. Is it relevant to the Dez catch which was under the 2014 rules? Either way I’ll try to answer.

The rule does say if a player is going to the ground he has to maintain possession without the ball touching the ground. So, yes, a pass can be completed to a player going to the ground, but that requires the ball never touching the ground.

 

[BlindFaith]

In 2014 rule book: 8-1

Article 3 Completed or Intercepted Pass. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is
complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act
common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an
opponent, etc.).

Note 1: It is not necessary that he commit such an act, provided that he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.
Note 2: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must
lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession.

If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch.

Item 1: Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact
by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field
of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass
is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

The rule to illustrate a football move to become a runner in 2014:
Rule 3 section 25.2
(i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an
opponent, etc.). Note that it says etc. meaning that this is not an all inclusive list.

2015 rules:
ARTICLE 3. COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds: (a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and (b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and (c) maintains control of the ball after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, until he has clearly become a runner (see 3-2-7 Item 2).
Note: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch.

Item 1. Player Going to the Ground. A player is considered to be going to the ground if he does not remain upright long enough to demonstrate that he is clearly a runner. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

Here is 3-2-7:
A player becomes a runner when he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact of an opponent.

So in 2015 we have some changes, we get upright long enough to clearly become a runner, yet the ways you can become a runner shrinks. But Dean, I thought this was to clarify the catch rule? That is what you said, it was not a change just making it clearer.

2016:
ARTICLE 3. COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds: (a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and (b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and (c) maintains control of the ball after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, until he has the ball long enough to clearly become a runner. A player has the ball long enough to become a runner when, after his second foot is on the ground, he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact of an opponent, tucking the ball away, turning up field, or taking additional steps (see 3-2-7-Item 2).

Note: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch.

Item 1. Player Going to the Ground. A player is considered to be going to the ground if he does not remain upright long enough to demonstrate that he is clearly a runner. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

3-2-7:
A player has the ball long enough to clearly become a runner when, after his second foot is on the ground, he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact
of an opponent, tucking the ball away, turning up field, or taking additional steps.

In 2016 they add a few more items to 3-2-7, but we still have no clarification of what upright long enough means.

2017: Is identical to 2017

For fun here is 2012 and 2013:

Article 3 Completed or Intercepted Pass. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds: (a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and (b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and (c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).

Note 1: It is not necessary that he commit such an act, provided that he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.
Note 2: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch.

Item 1: Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

3-2-7 just says act common to the game.

And then you have this from the 2014 case book:

A.R. 8.12 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS
First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted
by B1. He goes to the ground as a result of the contact, gets his second foot down, and with the ball in his right
arm, he braces himself at the three-yard line with his left hand and simultaneously lunges forward toward the
goal line. When he lands in the end zone, the ball comes out.
Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The pass is complete. When the receiver hits the ground in the end
zone, it is the result of lunging forward after bracing himself at the three-yard line and is not part of the process of
the catch. Since the ball crossed the goal line, it is a touchdown. If the ball is short of the goal line, it is a catch,
and A2 is down by contact.

Note that there is nothing in those rules that says going to the ground takes precedence over the catch process prior to 2015.

I think the crux of the confusion relates to the concept of going to the ground.

I read the rule to say that if the player is going to the ground during the process of catching the ball, then they must maintain possession through contacting the ground. This means going to the ground takes precedence. I think the modifications to the language they have made over time leads to this being the intent of the rule all along.

You seem to think that they can still become a runner while going to the ground. And I think you are getting this from the case plays. I personally think that the case plays contradict the actual rule as written and there is clearly no mention in the rule itself indicating how or what actions someone must take to become a runner while going to the ground.

I also think there is confusion around what going to the ground actually means as well. I know its a judgement call, but even some here who think the Dez catch was not a catch still can see how the Fitz catch was. I see going to the ground as falling. Not jumping straight up and landing where the player can still become a runner. I see both of those catches being similar in that, in my opinion, they were both going to the ground (falling). You can't try to interject some other basis, such as he turned his shoulders, or he reached or took steps while falling.

If you want to go that route, then add this language to the actual rule itself.

 

[BlindFaith]

You jump back and forth from the language in the rule book to the example in the playbook depending on which suits you at the time. Here you are using the rule book language to dispute what you wan't to deny in the casebook example, and at other times you use the casebook example to deny what the rule book says.

We were discussing the casebook language, which says if a players is going to the ground 1 foot down only matters if that foot came down prior to the contact, then it was the contact that caused him to go to the ground.

But you want to drop the casebook language and go with the "with or without contact by an opponent" standard set out in the 2014 rule book, you are actually hurting your case with that as well because that language says it doesn't matter whether the player is going to the ground "with or without contact by an opponent", in either case he has to maintain possession all the way, or if he loses possession he has to regain it without the ball ever touching the ground.

This is because, I believe, due to the case book being in conflict with the actual rule. I've said over and over that the rules germane to this are poorly, poorly written.

Just my opinion.

 

[OmerV]

This is because, I believe, due to the case book being in conflict with the actual rule. I've said over and over that the rules germane to this are poorly, poorly written.

Just my opinion.

I don't disagree that the rules are poorly written, and I agree that the casebook and the way the rule is written don't exactly mesh as they should, but percy is cherry picking whichever parts of each suit him, and ignoring whichever parts don't.

 

[BlindFaith]

I don't disagree that the rules are poorly written, and I agree that the casebook and the way the rule is written don't exactly mesh as they should, but percy is cherry picking whichever parts of each suit him, and ignoring whichever parts don't.

I'm just giving the benefit of the doubt. They are locked into an aspect (the case plays) that are not defined in the actual rule. I can see how they could think that maybe this should have been a catch. I do think they are trying to shoe horn this in to support their opinion and aren't looking at it objectively as to what the intent is. Call that cherry picking or whatever.

What I just cant understand is why they never acknowledge what people like Periera have said. He clearly says, as late as just a couple months ago, what the rule is and that Dez did not catch the ball. They are trying to force a rule interpretation that the league itself does not support. That should be end of story.

The next story should be how do we fix it, or if we should even try.

 

[MarcusRock]

The answers aren’t correct. Like others have said over and over. There was nothing in the rules saying the catch process couldn’t be completed while going to the ground and as long as it was competed it is a catch.

Do you see the irony in complaing(whining)about what you say is whining?

I don’t know what you’re asking about the 2015 rules. Explain it and I’ll try. Is it relevant to the Dez catch which was under the 2014 rules? Either way I’ll try to answer.

Of course my answers aren't correct. It's just like I said in the post you quoted: catch theorists never like answers that don't give them what they want
.
.
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So as for the question I posted to percy that I'm still waiting on, he posted this:

The football moved was removed from the rule book as the standard for becoming a runner and replaced by "upright long enough" in 2015.

To which I responded with:

No. Instead of "performing an act common to the game," part c of the 3-part process was re-worded as "clearly becoming a runner." Are there observable acts an official can see that someone has clearly become a runner?

Then Note 1 in the 2014 rule ("time enough" to perform an act common to the game) was moved into Item 1 of the rule to note that going to the ground kicks in if he is not upright "long enough" to demonstrate he is clearly a runner. How do you demonstrate that? By EITHER those observable acts or in the examples I cite where he might be restricted from performing one of those observable acts by a defender and he is deemed a runner by time alone.

So tell me where football move was "removed" from the rule book as the standard for becoming a runner. I just showed you how it's still there.

My question is there in bold.

 

[kskboys]

If Dez had fumbled that ball and the defender recovered, we'd then be saying that he didn't catch it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MarcusRock]

I don't disagree that the rules are poorly written, and I agree that the casebook and the way the rule is written don't exactly mesh as they should, but percy is cherry picking whichever parts of each suit him, and ignoring whichever parts don't.

I'm just giving the benefit of the doubt. They are locked into an aspect (the case plays) that are not defined in the actual rule. I can see how they could think that maybe this should have been a catch. I do think they are trying to shoe horn this in to support their opinion and aren't looking at it objectively as to what the intent is. Call that cherry picking or whatever.

What I just cant understand is why they never acknowledge what people like Periera have said. He clearly says, as late as just a couple months ago, what the rule is and that Dez did not catch the ball. They are trying to force a rule interpretation that the league itself does not support. That should be end of story.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has seen what's been going on. It's like I said before, the tactic is to overwhelm with information in circles while tossing in suppositions to rules that aren't there, "summarizing" articles to say what's not in them, and throwing in a dash of TMZ conspiracy chatter for flavor. When one side of an argument has to do this, it is because they know theirs is a weak argument and the goal is to simply "outlast" the other side.