I do not see any difference between that play and the Dez play in 2014 *merged*

blindzebra

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This is really simple, I don't see why it is so hard to understand.

To complete a pass in 2014 you needed a) Control b) two feet down and c) time to do an act or actually doing an act, obviously. That is the catch process but only a) and b) are done as a receiver, c) makes you a runner.
Going to the ground in 2014 made no mention of upright long enough, in fact such verbiage, nor anything similar, is nowhere to be found in the rules until 2015. It says a receiver must maintain possession through the ground. So if part c) above occurs you are no longer a receiver, so Item 1 is no longer in play.

In the case book plays in question a football act occurs in all three. The act common to the game and the balance and lunge case plays are identical, and by maintaining balance and lunging the receiver became a runner completing part c). That is why the case play says a lunge is not part of the catch process, because as I said only parts a) and b) are as a receiver and the receiver became a runner because he met the time element. In the other case play the brace and lunge was an act performed, time was not a factor because the player performed an act common to the game, part c). Again it says the brace and lunge are not part of the catch process because they are performed as a runner.

There is a long list of examples in rules 8.1.3.c and 3.2.7 followed by etc. Simply put, anything the official judges as an act of a runner completes part c) of 8.1.3. The fact that the NFL used a lunge is more a case of lazy and poor rule writing than anything else, because there is absolutely no rule support making a lunge is something special. In fact, it isn't even in the list of acts.

The point of the case plays are that an act common to the game will end Item 1, regardless of what act is performed, before or after the going to the ground begins.
 

blindzebra

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Item 1: Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.
And? You do realize that that section of 8.1.3 has been posted about 500 times in this thread right? And it does not mean what you think it means. That has been established about 80 pages ago.:thumbup:
 

MarcusRock

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In 2014, you didn't have to be upright to complete the catch process, so balance has nothing to do with this. All he had to do after control and two feet down was hold onto the ball long enough to "perform any act common to the game."

You didn't have to be "upright" to complete the catch process in 2015 either. What you have to do is "clearly become a runner" which can be done with an act an official can observe (the question you keep avoiding answering) or with time. This is the same as 2014 which is why the case play 8.12 is still in the 2015 rulebook. The same case play where your wingman said they "forgot" to take it out to cover up that they made a mistake on the Dez play. Laughable.

When one side avoids questions multiple times and changes stories, their argument is suspect at the very least.
 

Galian Beast

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And? You do realize that that section of 8.1.3 has been posted about 500 times in this thread right? And it does not mean what you think it means. That has been established about 80 pages ago.:thumbup:

It doesn't mean that I think it means? Funny.
 

percyhoward

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But it doesn't say that it's part of the catch process. It specifically says it's not.
Of course it's not. If he gets control of the ball and two feet down, and then lunges, you know he's a runner. Like I said, runners lunge. The most receivers can do is get control of the ball with two feet down.

You can divide the process of a journey into three parts: the departure, the journey itself, and the arrival. Should we argue about whether the arrival is part of the journey?

And as I posed to bz, is the time requirement for someone falling the same time requirement for someone who isn't? Do you think the falling player has as much Time? I would say definitively no.
It depends on how long it takes him to fall. You can take several steps before either regaining your balance or going down.

So it's not really a time element rather than an attempt to interrupt the fall. And a subsequent lunge to support the fact that they had somewhat halted their fall. Lunge being the only act that could adequately demonstrate that.
The lunge is just the example they used. A player could simply reach out for the line of gain, even though reaching doesn't interrupt the fall in any way, and that too would satisfy the time element and complete the catch process. The reach tells you he's already caught it. The reach is something runners do.

Otherwise, why did Blandino address the reach?
 

MarcusRock

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Of course it's not. If he gets control of the ball and two feet down, and then lunges, you know he's a runner. Like I said, runners lunge. The most receivers can do is get control of the ball with two feet down.

You can divide the process of a journey into three parts: the departure, the journey itself, and the arrival. Should we argue about whether the arrival is part of the journey?


It depends on how long it takes him to fall. You can take several steps before either regaining your balance or going down.


The lunge is just the example they used. A player could simply reach out for the line of gain, even though reaching doesn't interrupt the fall in any way, and that too would satisfy the time element and complete the catch process. The reach tells you he's already caught it. The reach is something runners do.

Otherwise, why did Blandino address the reach?

Blandino addressed the failed lunge and showed what a good lunge looked like. From the same player.

Maybe if Dez did a "deuces" or peace sign to the sideline as he fell, that would have been considered a football move too. After all, runners do this, right?
 
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percyhoward

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Item 1: Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.
Note the highlighted part.

The case scenario doesn't contradict Item 1, because in the case play, the lunge was the act common to the game that showed he'd completed the catch process. He was no longer in the act of catching the pass.
 

blindzebra

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Blandino addressed the failed lunge and showed what a good lunge looked like. From the same player.

Maybe if Dez did a "deuces" or peace sign to the sideline as he fell, that would have been considered a football move too. After all, runners do this, right?
Translation, we ignored everything that made it a catch to make it incomplete, it was an arbitrary decision not based on the rules. It also indicates that upright long enough was not part of the rules in 2014.
 

MarcusRock

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Translation, we ignored everything that made it a catch to make it incomplete, it was an arbitrary decision not based on the rules. It also indicates that upright long enough was not part of the rules in 2014.

In other words, CONSPIRACY! as I've stated your position to be all along.

"Forgot" to remove the case play. That still kills me, lol. Sorry.
 

Galian Beast

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Note the highlighted part.

The case scenario doesn't contradict Item 1, because in the case play, the lunge was the act common to the game that showed he'd completed the catch process. He was no longer in the act of catching the pass.

Refs say it wasn't an act common to the game... That's the end of it.
 

BlindFaith

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Blandino addressed the failed lunge and showed what a good lunge looked like. From the same player.

Maybe if Dez did a "deuces" or peace sign to the sideline as he fell, that would have been considered a football move too. After all, runners do this, right?

Exactly. They are failing to grasp the "gather" themselves is required, then the lunge.

The case plays elude to this, by brace or regain balance.

They simply don't understand the intent of the rule.
 

BlindFaith

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Translation, we ignored everything that made it a catch to make it incomplete, it was an arbitrary decision not based on the rules. It also indicates that upright long enough was not part of the rules in 2014.
Or you just don't understand the rule?

Conspiracy or lack of understanding? Hmmm...
 

G2

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Translation, we ignored everything that made it a catch to make it incomplete, it was an arbitrary decision not based on the rules. It also indicates that upright long enough was not part of the rules in 2014.
Wow.
 

blindzebra

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In other words, CONSPIRACY! as I've stated your position to be all along.

"Forgot" to remove the case play. That still kills me, lol. Sorry.
Still waiting on that rule support for that magical lunge being the only thing that ends Item 1.
 

Kevinicus

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Here is the rule:

Article 3 Completed or Intercepted Pass. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is
complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:
a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act
common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an
opponent, etc.).
Note 1: It is not necessary that he commit such an act, provided that he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.

You completely butchered that interpretation.

You are combining two separate case plays. The time element has A1 keeping his balance and lunging, The time being met ended the catch process, which ended going to the ground. That is why the lunge was not part of the catch, A1 is a runner because he completed a,b, and c. BEFORE the lunge.

In the other case play when A1 got the second foot down and then braced he completed the catch process making the lunge a move by a runner. That runner part is why it says the lunge was not part of the catch process, that is because in both case plays A1 was a runner BEFORE the lunge.

You also, once again failed to give a rule from the rule book that says the words a lunge is a separate enity.
What you did do was confirm that in 2014 going to the ground goes bye bye when the catch process is completed. You know exactly what Percy, Mr. C and I have been telling you for 77 pages.:thumbup:

I don't know why this is hard for them to get.

There is a,b,c, and d.

a. secure the ball
b. get two feet down
c. control the ball long enough (time element)
d. football move ("act common to the game" - lunges, steps, warding off an opponent, etc.)

Part d is not a part of the catch process itself, however, for a player to get to d, then part c must have been completed. Part d is an indicator of the completion of part c. It is an indicator of the process, not the process itself. Now of course, all of those have to come in order for it to be a catch (or item 1 applies).
 

BlindFaith

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Still waiting on that rule support for that magical lunge being the only thing that ends Item 1.
The lunge is the second part.

It's that he didn't "gather" himself while going to the ground prior to the lunge.

This gathering is what we've been trying to explain.

The bracing or regaining balance in the case plays. What I've been calling interrupting the fall.

If you can't see the difference in the two Dez catches then I'm glad you're not officiating games in the NFL.
 

blindzebra

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I don't know why this is hard for them to get.

There is a,b,c, and d.

a. secure the ball
b. get two feet down
c. control the ball long enough (time element)
d. football move ("act common to the game" - lunges, steps, warding off an opponent, etc.)

Part d is not a part of the catch process itself, however, for a player to get to d, then part c must have been completed. Part d is an indicator of the completion of part c. It is an indicator of the process, not the process itself. Now of course, all of those have to come in order for it to be a catch (or item 1 applies).
It is easier than that c) and your d) are the same it is time or move to show the time happened. It does not matter if the time or act happen first. The entire idea of time is stupid anyway, it leaves too much individual judgment, and can lead to the replay guy to have his own view of what time is.
 

blindzebra

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The lunge is the second part.

It's that he didn't "gather" himself while going to the ground prior to the lunge.

This gathering is what we've been trying to explain.

The bracing or regaining balance in the case plays. What I've been calling interrupting the fall.

If you can't see the difference in the two Dez catches then I'm glad you're not officiating games in the NFL.
Cite a rule that says it and stop the dodging.
How about what is the same? The switch to his left hand, the launching off the left leg. They are the same act that happens in both, it does not say in the rule that there is a partial football move and a better football move that counts.
It is like saying a RB that makes a spin move and gains 1 yard didn't make a spin move because the last time he made a spin move he went 60 yards. It is moronic.
 
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