I do not see any difference between that play and the Dez play in 2014 *merged*

[percyhoward]

Precisely. Runners lunge. But they have to be on the ground to do so, right? So why did they only use that 1 example in the case plays? And why did they specifically say that the lunge was not part of the process? And that what was part of the process was time, then it became brace and then it became balance? What or they inferring here?

I gave my explanation. Blidzebra hasn't. Maybe you'd like to?

First, tell me what case play we're talking about. Is it this one?

A.R. 15.95
Act common to game
Third-and-10 on A20. Pass over the middle is ruled incomplete at the A30. The receiver controlled the pass with one foot down and was then contacted by a defender. As he went to the ground, he got his second foot down and then still in control of the ball he lunged for the line to gain, losing the ball when he landed.
Ruling: Reviewable. Completed pass. A’s ball first-and-10 on A30.
In this situation, the act of lunging is not part of the process of the catch. He has completed the time element required for the pass to be complete and does not
have to hold onto the ball when he hits the ground. When he hit the ground, he was down by contact.

 

[BlindFaith]

That is exactly why I asked, When you wrote this:

And since I don't know exactly what they are trying to define in the case play since there is no corresponding written rule to refer back to, it's only my supposition of intent.

That is exactly what you are already doing, by saying that only a lunge applies. You are reading too deeply into the case play instead of realizing that it is not about just the lunge it is about any act common to the game. We can infer that because we look at the case play about an act common, what 8.1.3.c says these acts can be, and further support it with 3.2.7.

You are taking the case play and working backwards without any rule support, and inferring something that is not in the rules. That is a huge difference than having rule support and then applying it to a case play that is not exact an exact match.

You are supposing that! Why do I keep saying these things are poorly written. You keep saying, oh well that's how they do it.

So then I go by what they do say, and you reply that, oh well there's more in the rules but they just didn't want to include them.

Answer the question - What is the act that completed the catch process in the case play????????

 

[Galian Beast]

Let's look at the facts here.

Did Dez think he was a runner at that stage? Obviously. Had he done enough to establish himself as a runner? No. The rule is murky, but all he needed to do was maintain possession of the ball in going down. He chose to lunge out and that was a mistake. Just as it was a mistake for Romo to go long on 4th down rather than just moving the chains there.

That being said he clearly has possession, switches hands, and lunges for the endzone. In my book this would have been a catch. I can definitely see why they called that it was not a catch. Though given that the ruling on the field was a catch, I'm still stunned that they overturned it.

 

[percyhoward]

Let's look at the facts here.

Did Dez think he was a runner at that stage? Obviously. Had he done enough to establish himself as a runner? No. The rule is murky, but all he needed to do was maintain possession of the ball in going down. He chose to lunge out and that was a mistake.

Lunging isn't part of catching a football, at least not after control and two feet down.

The way you know he caught it is that, after control and two feet down, he had enough time to lunge.

 

[Galian Beast]

Lunging isn't part of catching a football, at least not after control and two feet down.

He never came down with the ball, he goes to the ground as he is catching the football. He loses his balance immediately.

 

[BlindFaith]

First, tell me what case play we're talking about. Is it this one?

A.R. 15.95
Act common to game
Third-and-10 on A20. Pass over the middle is ruled incomplete at the A30. The receiver controlled the pass with one foot down and was then contacted by a defender. As he went to the ground, he got his second foot down and then still in control of the ball he lunged for the line to gain, losing the ball when he landed.
Ruling: Reviewable. Completed pass. A’s ball first-and-10 on A30.
In this situation, the act of lunging is not part of the process of the catch. He has completed the time element required for the pass to be complete and does not
have to hold onto the ball when he hits the ground. When he hit the ground, he was down by contact.

Look back a few pages. I'm not redoing it all.

 

[percyhoward]

He never came down with the ball, he goes to the ground as he is catching the football. He loses his balance immediately.

In 2014, you didn't have to be upright to complete the catch process, so balance has nothing to do with this. All he had to do after control and two feet down was hold onto the ball long enough to "perform any act common to the game."

A.R. 15.95
Act common to game
Third-and-10 on A20. Pass over the middle is ruled incomplete at the A30. The receiver controlled the pass with one foot down and was then contacted by a defender. As he went to the ground, he got his second foot down and then still in control of the ball he lunged for the line to gain, losing the ball when he landed.
Ruling: Reviewable. Completed pass. A’s ball first-and-10 on A30.
In this situation, the act of lunging is not part of the process of the catch. He has completed the time element required for the pass to be complete and does not
have to hold onto the ball when he hits the ground. When he hit the ground, he was down by contact.

 

[BlindFaith]

Lunging isn't part of catching a football, at least not after control and two feet down.

The way you know he caught it is that, after control and two feet down, he had enough time to lunge.

Define time. While going to the ground.

And the case plays all say that the player lunges after this time occurred.

And then in another case it's not time but brace and then lunge.

Then in yet another it's regains balance and then lunge.

And yes, I know that the lunge is not a part of the catch process, but it is included in all three case plays. Why????

 

[blindzebra]

You are supposing that! Why do I keep saying these things are poorly written. You keep saying, oh well that's how they do it.

So then I go by what they do say, and you reply that, oh well there's more in the rules but they just didn't want to include them.

Answer the question - What is the act that completed the catch process in the case play????????

I already said it many times. Time and the brace and lunge.

 

[blindzebra]

Define time. While going to the ground.

And the case plays all say that the player lunges after this time occurred.

And then in another case it's not time but brace and then lunge.

Then in yet another it's regains balance and then lunge.

And yes, I know that the lunge is not a part of the catch process, but it is included in all three case plays. Why????

Because they are lazy? I'd say so since the act and the GTG case plays are identical.

 

[percyhoward]

Look back a few pages. I'm not redoing it all.

LOL You just quoted the scenario. You can't type "yes" or "no?"

What? I thought we were at least past comparing falling to not falling. Because those are the only two unique things you can do. Because you can catch the ball during both.

So what's the relevance of comparing falling and catching?

You can fall down without doing things like putting the ball in one hand, reaching for the goal line, or lunging. So those acts aren't part of falling. They're other things that happened besides somebody falling down.

 

[big dog cowboy]

Every time I see the Dez play it becomes even clear that this was not a catch under the rule.

Dez caught it.

 

[KJJ]

Dez caught it.

Not according to the rule. In your backyard that was a catch but not in the NFL.

 

[BlindFaith]

I already said it many times. Time and the brace and lunge.

Lunge is not part of the process. Why is it still in all three case plays?

How much time? The same amount of time required to become a runner for a player not going to the ground? Do you really think a falling player has the same amount of time?

And it can't be what is defined as an act common to the game because the player could still be in the air. Unless you are saying that if he pitches the ball while in the air it makes it a catch and fumble? Do you think that?

 

[percyhoward]

Define time. While going to the ground.

Time is what passed between the second foot hitting and the lunge. That's if you're talking about A.R. 15.95 that I posted above.

And the case plays all say that the player lunges after this time occurred.

And then in another case it's not time but brace and then lunge.

Then in yet another it's regains balance and then lunge.

And yes, I know that the lunge is not a part of the catch process, but it is included in all three case plays. Why????

Generally speaking, the lunge is an act common to the game that meets the time requirement. It lets you know the catch process was completed. So there's no need to hold onto the ball when you hit the ground because you're already a runner. You'd have to tell me which case plays you're referring to if you want me to be more specific.

 

[BlindFaith]

LOL You just quoted the scenario. You can't type "yes" or "no?"


You can fall down without doing things like putting the ball in one hand, reaching for the goal line, or lunging. So those acts aren't part of falling. They're other things that happened besides somebody falling down.

It's not just 1 scenario. I give my understanding of the intent. Good read if I say so myself. Keep up Percy.

And yes, that's why you don't have to do anything while falling except maintain possession through contacting the ground. See how simple that is.

Lunge, reach, stretch, take steps while going to the ground at your peril.

 

[Galian Beast]

In 2014, you didn't have to be upright to complete the catch process, so balance has nothing to do with this. All he had to do after control and two feet down was hold onto the ball long enough to "perform any act common to the game."

A.R. 15.95
Act common to game
Third-and-10 on A20. Pass over the middle is ruled incomplete at the A30. The receiver controlled the pass with one foot down and was then contacted by a defender. As he went to the ground, he got his second foot down and then still in control of the ball he lunged for the line to gain, losing the ball when he landed.
Ruling: Reviewable. Completed pass. A’s ball first-and-10 on A30.
In this situation, the act of lunging is not part of the process of the catch. He has completed the time element required for the pass to be complete and does not
have to hold onto the ball when he hits the ground. When he hit the ground, he was down by contact.

His inability to stay upright means that he was going to the ground and in going to the ground in the process of the catch anything that causes the player to lose the ball is going to bring into question whether or not it was a catch.

 

[BlindFaith]

Time is what passed between the second foot hitting and the lunge. That's if you're talking about A.R. 15.95 that I posted above.


Generally speaking, the lunge is an act common to the game that meets the time requirement. It lets you know the catch process was completed. So there's no need to hold onto the ball when you hit the ground because you're already a runner. You'd have to tell me which case plays you're referring to if you want me to be more specific.

But it doesn't say that it's part of the catch process. It specifically says it's not.

And as I posed to bz, is the time requirement for someone falling the same time requirement for someone who isn't? Do you think the falling player has as much Time? I would say definitively no.

So it's not really a time element rather than an attempt to interrupt the fall. And a subsequent lunge to support the fact that they had somewhat halted their fall. Lunge being the only act that could adequately demonstrate that.

 

[percyhoward]

His inability to stay upright means that he was going to the ground and in going to the ground in the process of the catch anything that causes the player to lose the ball is going to bring into question whether or not it was a catch.

You're describing the casebook scenario I posted. The player is unable to stay upright, meaning he's going to the ground, and he loses the ball when he hits the ground. But it's ruled a catch. Why?

Because he doesn't go to the ground in the process of the catch. He lunges first. Like you said Dez did when you said, "He chose to lunge out and that was a mistake."

 

[Galian Beast]

You're describing the casebook scenario I posted. The player is unable to stay upright, meaning he's going to the ground, and he loses the ball when he hits the ground. But it's ruled a catch. Why?

Because he doesn't go to the ground in the process of the catch. He lunges first. Like you said Dez did when you said, "He chose to lunge out and that was a mistake."

Item 1: Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.