I do not see any difference between that play and the Dez play in 2014 *merged*

percyhoward

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Now you're getting close to understanding.

He never did, because he was going to the ground the whole time. So there never was a point. BUT, if he had regained his balance at a hypothetical point, he then would have meet the requirement of completing the catch.
I was curious as to how someone with your point of view on the play would answer that question. So thanks for answering.

"Dez got his second foot down at the 4. If his body never hits the ground, and he stumbles across the goal line, and regains his balance three yards deep in the end zone. When did he catch it?"

So you say he got control of the ball with two feet down, then carried the ball 7 yards farther down the field, then caught it, right?
 

BlindFaith

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I was curious as to how someone with your point of view on the play would answer that question. So thanks for answering.

"Dez got his second foot down at the 4. If his body never hits the ground, and he stumbles across the goal line, and regains his balance three yards deep in the end zone. When did he catch it?"

So you say he got control of the ball with two feet down, then carried the ball 7 yards farther down the field, then caught it, right?
No. Since he wasn't going to the ground, it would have been a catch after demonstrating that he could protect himself, time, become a runner. You know, like a normal catch for an upright player.
 

MarcusRock

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I'm sure you're thinking that' "becoming a runner" has always meant being upright. It hasn't.

You become a runner when you complete the catch process. (and prior to 2015, whether upright or not). Go to 1:30.

Blandino: "Calvin did not have both feet down prior to reaching for the goal line. So this is all one process. This is an incomplete pass. Now I'll show you the difference. Let's go to Julius Thomas against the Giants. Watch what Julius does. He's gonna get control, take two steps...and now reach for the goal line. He has established himself as a runner."

That was from 2013. Then as now, a player is a "receiver" until he completes the catch process. At that point he becomes a "runner."

The rule that changed was the time element that completes the catch process. In 2014 the time element was the football move. That's why Blandino didn't say anything about Johnson or Thomas having to be upright in 2013, or Dez having to be upright in 2014. Then in 2015, they changed the time element to "upright long enough," and completely eliminated the football move. That was the change that Pereira tweeted about when it happened.


LOL. Are you running out of people to talk to and now want to try to rope some of the same people back in? It's over. At least go back and address the posts you've ignored that directly disprove the lie you repeat about the rules changing in 2015. Even your wingmen aren't chiming in to cheerlead that one, lol. The fruits of being a dishonest debater.
 

percyhoward

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No. Since he wasn't going to the ground, it would have been a catch after demonstrating that he could protect himself, time, become a runner. You know, like a normal catch for an upright player.
In this scenario, he wasn't upright until he was three yards deep in the end zone. So if a defender punches the ball loose before Dez crosses the goal line, you have no way of knowing he was going to be upright later on.

Fumble or incomplete?

Since 2015, the focus is not on determining the point at which the ball was caught. Even though he had control and two feet down, then took 2-3 additional steps, he was never upright. That's incomplete.

Prior to 2015, when the focus was still on determining the point at which the ball was caught, how do you think that's ruled? Fumble or incomplete?
 

OmerV

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So now you're saying he was nervous and just said something that didn't make sense. You're not even trying to explain it anymore.


I'm assuming he said what he meant to say.

On the official’s overturn of Dez Bryant’s catch on 4th and 2 after review:

“This is very similar to the Calvin Johnson play where Bryant is going to the ground to make the catch and the rule is pretty clear that when you go to the ground to make the catch you have to hold on to it throughout that entire process. When Dez hits the ground with his left arm the ball hits the ground it pops loose into the air and that is all part of the catch process that makes it an incomplete pass.”​

He makes a comparison to another play that was also ruled incomplete, and says Dez went to the ground to make the catch, in the same way Johnson did. He says Dez was still in the act of catching the pass when he went to the ground. He describes what we all see when we watch the end of the play (ball coming out), and reminds us that Item 1 says he's got to hold on when he hits the ground. That if it pops loose, then Dez didn't complete the catch process.

On whether or not Dez Bryant reaching for the goal line could have been considered a football act:

“Yeah, absolutely. We looked at that aspect of it and in order for it to be a football move, it’s got to be more obvious than that, reaching the ball out with both hands, extending it for the goal line. This is all part of in our view, all part of his momentum in going to the ground and he lost the ball when he hit the ground. That in our view made it incomplete and we feel like it’s a consistent application of the rule as it has been written over the last couple of years.”​

He's asked if Dez's reach could be considered a football move, which in 2014 would have completed the catch process. He says they looked at it and said it wasn't clearly a reach, but was instead all part of his momentum in going to the ground. He contrasted Dez's "unclear" reach with "clear" reaches -- the types of reaches that were considered football moves in 2014. He reminds us again that the ball indeed did come loose when Dez hit the ground, and that his application of Item 1 was consistent with the other times it was applied.

That last question, by the way, is the point at which he could have simply said, "The football move does not trump going to the ground," if that were the rule at the time

On why this is a rule and why is the rule written this way:

“I think that’s a fair point. I think people look at that and they say that is a catch but I think it is about consistency and it’s about, ok if we make that a catch then we’ve got to look at all these other plays where receivers go to the ground and where do we draw the line? Currently we have a line where control, both feet and then do something with it. If we make this a catch, then where do we draw the line with a lot of other plays where it’s clearly incomplete by rule and it can become even more inconsistent. It’s something that we’ll review with the Competition Committee – we review every year. I understand that people are upset. It looks like a catch and I don’t think that’s that far-fetched, but it’s something in order to be consistent we have to draw the line somewhere and that’s where the current line is.”​

They ask him to explain why a player who goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass should have to maintain control after he hits the ground. He says that you have to draw the line between "catch" and "no catch" somewhere, and that currently the NFL draws that line at control + 2 feet + football move. If the NFL makes Dez's play (in which the payer did not make a football move) a catch, then they still have to draw a line between plays like Dez's that seem like catches and plays that obviously are not catches, (plays where the receiver hits the ground much sooner after 2 feet down, for example).

Here's a good example of the two different types of plays he's talking about. In any case, he's giving yet another answer in which he's alluding to the catch process and the football move. "Control, both feet, and do something with it" is the catch process, and the "do something with it" part is the football move.

On why Dez Bryant wasn’t marked down where his elbow went down:

“Because he is not a runner yet. He has not established possession. A runner who’s established possession, absolutely. The minute his elbow hits, the minute the knee hits, he’s down by contact. Here, he’s still a receiver attempting to catch the pass so it’s treated differently and the moment that elbow hits the ball hits the ground as well and it pops up so that’s the application of the rule that was done here. He’s not a runner – he’s a receiver trying to gain possession.”​

This is a great question. Aren't you down if any part of your body besides feet or hands touch the ground, and doesn't that end the play? Yes, but only if you have first established yourself as a runner (See "runner" vs. "receiver"). According to Blandino, Dez didn't establish himself as a runner, so he never actually gained possession. (In order to become a runner in 2014, you needed control + 2 feet + football move.) Here, it's very important to realize that a "runner" in 2014 did not necessarily have to be upright, he only had to be in possession of a live ball. So when he says "Dez is not a runner yet," it can't be read as "Dez wasn't upright long enough." That didn't become a rule until 2015. The confusion over the term "runner" is probably the #1 obstacle that prevents people from understanding this stuff.

That's the entire interview. What exactly are you under the impression that I'm pretending he didn't say?

I'm going to say a couple of things about the first part of this post and then let it go - frankly I didn't do much more than skim the last 2/3 of it because I'm tired of people writing short novels here anyway, and nothing you have said is anything new or anything I haven't previously responded to over 122 pages.

The first is to say you are, AGAIN, twisiting what I said, and I find it ironic that you would take such big issue with me saying Blandino didn't word things as well as he could have, as if everyone else that ever has a microphone in their face and is asked to provide an unplanned answer always handles it exactly as they would like. Yet at the same time you have no problem ignoring everything else he says as clarification, and attributing words to him that aren't there.

The second is to say that, AGAIN, you are taking things out of context. When Blandino said "yeah, absolutely". the question wasn't if Dez reaching could have been considered a football move and therefore could have established him as a runner, the question was whether he even looked at that, and his response was that he did look at it, and rejected it, again saying that it was all done in the process of going to the ground. He flat out said the fact Dez was in the process of going to the ground negated the reach as a possible football move, and therefore Dez was required to maintain possession all the way through the play. You are like the "Hear no evil, see no evil" monkey that covers his eyes and ears to whatever he doesn't want to see or hear. I at least acknowledge Blandino's wording left something to be desired, but you just flat out pretend things Blandino said that don't suit you were never said at all.
 

Kevinicus

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I'm going to say a couple of things about the first part of this post and then let it go - frankly I didn't do much more than skim the last 2/3 of it because I'm tired of people writing short novels here anyway, and nothing you have said is anything new or anything I haven't previously responded to over 122 pages.

The first is to say you are, AGAIN, twisiting what I said, and I find it ironic that you would take such big issue with me saying Blandino didn't word things as well as he could have, as if everyone else that ever has a microphone in their face and is asked to provide an unplanned answer always handles it exactly as they would like. Yet at the same time you have no problem ignoring everything else he says as clarification, and attributing words to him that aren't there.

The second is to say that, AGAIN, you are taking things out of context. When Blandino said "yeah, absolutely". the question wasn't if Dez reaching could have been considered a football move and therefore could have established him as a runner, the question was whether he even looked at that, and his response was that he did look at it, and rejected it, again saying that it was all done in the process of going to the ground. He flat out said the fact Dez was in the process of going to the ground negated the reach as a possible football move, and therefore Dez was required to maintain possession all the way through the play. You are like the "Hear no evil, see no evil" monkey that covers his eyes and ears to whatever he doesn't want to see or hear. I at least acknowledge Blandino's wording left something to be desired, but you just flat out pretend things Blandino said that don't suit you were never said at all.

You are twisting the context to fit your interpretation. That is not what Blandino said. Percy had it 100% right.
 

OmerV

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You are twisting the context to fit your interpretation. That is not what Blandino said. Percy had it 100% right.

As usual, actually, as always, you are playing the parrot to something someone else with no content of your own. I don't believe you have actually ever posted anything that wasn't just some version of "I'm right and you're wrong", without any additional comment or content.
 
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BlindFaith

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In this scenario, he wasn't upright until he was three yards deep in the end zone. So if a defender punches the ball loose before Dez crosses the goal line, you have no way of knowing he was going to be upright later on.

Fumble or incomplete?

Since 2015, the focus is not on determining the point at which the ball was caught. Even though he had control and two feet down, then took 2-3 additional steps, he was never upright. That's incomplete.

Prior to 2015, when the focus was still on determining the point at which the ball was caught, how do you think that's ruled? Fumble or incomplete?

Dez was never upright.

In your hypothetical scenario where he doesn't fall, then obviously there is some hypothetical point where he regains his balance or "becomes a runner". And that would be prior to him being 3 yards deep in the end zone. There is no way that 7 yards transpire without knowing if he is either upright or going to the ground. You would know by the time he gets his second foot down, typically, if he is falling or not. That's where your attempt to justify this breaks down.

But, as been said many times, there is still a judgement call around this. As in the Fitz catch. They determined he had become a runner prior to going to the ground. I would not have ruled it that way. To me it looked like he was going to the ground the entire time. And even Blandino said it could go either way.
 

Kevinicus

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As usual, actually, as always, you are playing the parrot to something someone else with no content of your own. I don't believe you have actually ever posted anything that wasn't just some version of "I'm right and you're wrong", without any additional comment or content.

I have, but you ignore it. And in this case (and most of this thread), I don't have to. Percy/Zebra covered everything over and over again (also ignored or twisted and completely misunderstood). There is no point in repeating what they said.

It's not a complicated sentence to break down from Blandino. I honestly don't know how it's not clear, especially after Percy laid out exactly what he was conveying. I can only attribute it to a willful distortion.
 

Kevinicus

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Dez was never upright.

In your hypothetical scenario where he doesn't fall, then obviously there is some hypothetical point where he regains his balance or "becomes a runner". And that would be prior to him being 3 yards deep in the end zone. There is no way that 7 yards transpire without knowing if he is either upright or going to the ground. You would know by the time he gets his second foot down, typically, if he is falling or not. That's where your attempt to justify this breaks down.

But, as been said many times, there is still a judgement call around this. As in the Fitz catch. They determined he had become a runner prior to going to the ground. I would not have ruled it that way. To me it looked like he was going to the ground the entire time. And even Blandino said it could go either way.

His hypothetical specifically says that the point where he regains his balance is 3 yards deep in the end zone. That was the point of the mental exercise. Why, in your opinion, must it be prior to that point? Someone can't stumble for 6 or 7 steps before finally falling? Someone can't stumble for 6 or 7 steps before finally regaining their balance? You're not making a strong argument here.
 

OmerV

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I have, but you ignore it. And in this case (and most of this thread), I don't have to. Percy/Zebra covered everything over and over again (also ignored or twisted and completely misunderstood). There is no point in repeating what they said.

It's not a complicated sentence to break down from Blandino. I honestly don't know how it's not clear, especially after Percy laid out exactly what he was conveying. I can only attribute it to a willful distortion.

No, you say you have. The closest you have ever come is just to regurgitate an abbreviated version of what someone else has said. You've never offered your own insight, or formulated your own thoughts or made your own point. All you do is either say "I'm right and you're wrong". or "what Percy said is right, and you're wrong". Of course, you occasionally use all caps so it comes out "YOU'RE WRONG", as if the impression you are shouting somehow substitutes for logic. The only time I recall you actually stepping away from that is when you claimed A.R. 8.12 didn't say something I indicated it did, and then it turned out you stepped on your tongue when I showed you that A.R. 8.12 actually did say that. I
 
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BlindFaith

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His hypothetical specifically says that the point where he regains his balance is 3 yards deep in the end zone. That was the point of the mental exercise. Why, in your opinion, must it be prior to that point? Someone can't stumble for 6 or 7 steps before finally falling? Someone can't stumble for 6 or 7 steps before finally regaining their balance? You're not making a strong argument here.
You either fall or you don't. Have you ever tripped and then "magically" managed to make it another 7 yards before regaining your balance?

He's once again trying to shoehorn in something that doesn't even make sense from a scientific standpoint. So you have devolved to:
Still photos
Pseudo Science
and Hypothetically nonsensical scenarios.

Stephen Jones and Bigfoot are laughing at you.
 
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DogFace

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I have, but you ignore it. And in this case (and most of this thread), I don't have to. Percy/Zebra covered everything over and over again (also ignored or twisted and completely misunderstood). There is no point in repeating what they said.

It's not a complicated sentence to break down from Blandino. I honestly don't know how it's not clear, especially after Percy laid out exactly what he was conveying. I can only attribute it to a willful distortion.
That’s te part you’d think they understand. We are just repeating stuff in less technical, simpler terms so they could better understand.
 

OmerV

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That’s te part you’d think they understand. We are just repeating stuff in less technical, simpler terms so they could better understand.

Mr. C, you actually make the effort to explain your position - he doesn't do that. He doesn't give explanations, he doesn't break down a rule and give his interpretation, and he doesn't try to use different terms, he just says "I'm right and you're wrong" without any effort at any of that. While I disagree with you, I can at least see where you are coming from, and I appreciate that you try to discuss rather than simply get emotional. That's not what Kevinicus does.
 

Kevinicus

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No, you say you have. The closest you have ever come is just to regurgitate an abbreviated version of what someone else has said. You've never offered your own insight, or formulated your own thoughts or made your own point. All you do is either say "I'm right and you're wrong". or "what Percy said is right, and you're wrong". Of course, you occasionally use all caps so it comes out "YOU'RE WRONG", as if the impression you are shouting somehow substitutes for logic. The only time I recall you actually stepping away from that is when you claimed A.R. 8.12 didn't say something I indicated it did, and then it turned out you stepped on your tongue when I showed you that A.R. 8.12 actually did say that. I

You mean when you lied about me saying something I didn't say? Or when I pointed that out the last time and you ignored it?

You seem to have a consistent problem of misrepresenting what people say.
 

Kevinicus

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You either fall or you don't. Have you ever tripped and then "magically" managed to make it another 7 yards before regaining your balance?

He's once again trying to shoehorn in something that doesn't even make sense from a scientific standpoint. So you have devolved to:
Still photos
Pseudo Science
and Hypothetically nonsensical scenarios.

Stephen Jones and Bigfoot are laughing at you.

You fall or you don't, but when you don't, at what point is it a catch? That's his point. You deflected from answering the situation he presented.

There is no pseudo science or nonsensical scenarios. If it doesn't make sense to you from a scientific standpoint, then maybe you shouldn't be discussing it, because it's not that complicated.
 

OmerV

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You mean when you lied about me saying something I didn't say?

lol - I quoted what you wrote directly from the actual post where you wrote it, and then I quoted where you had to admit that what I said was in AR 8.12 actually is in AR 8.12.

You really aren't as clever as you think. It's not a new thing for posters to make empty claims with no supporting content, either in logic or fact, and assume people will accept it as truth simply because it's in print. It's actually almost the standard on the internet these days.
 

G2

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You fall or you don't, but when you don't, at what point is it a catch? That's his point. You deflected from answering the situation he presented.

There is no pseudo science or nonsensical scenarios. If it doesn't make sense to you from a scientific standpoint, then maybe you shouldn't be discussing it, because it's not that complicated.
What are you bringing to the debate minus others' statements that have been repeated ad nauseam? All you ever post is "What he said."
 

BlindFaith

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You fall or you don't, but when you don't, at what point is it a catch? That's his point. You deflected from answering the situation he presented.

There is no pseudo science or nonsensical scenarios. If it doesn't make sense to you from a scientific standpoint, then maybe you shouldn't be discussing it, because it's not that complicated.
The point he is trying to make doesn't exist.

Dez at no point became a runner. End of story.

If he had, it would have became a catch.

This is nothing more than a spin on what you guys have failed at arguing before.

And if I need to explain the three part process of a catch for a player not going to the ground, then you are a lost cause.
 
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Kevinicus

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What are you bringing to the debate minus others' statements that have been repeated ad nauseam? All you ever post is "What he said."

I corrected him. What do you want me to add specifically? He said it was scientifically flawed. That is simply incorrect. Until he addresses the actual situation presented, I can't address that argument.

Have you looked at your "contributions?"
 
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