I do not see any difference between that play and the Dez play in 2014 *merged*

[BlindFaith]

The point is, and we've been over this an ungodly number of times and will never agree, is that once they decided he was going to the ground there was no "act common to the game" to look for, and Item 1 applied. I know your instinct will be to tell me that it wrong, but, again, we've been through that over and over, and we are going to have to accept that we don't agree.

This is the point of contention. They actually do look. Its regaining balance. This is why they clarified the rule to now read "upright long enough".

But this is also why this part of the rule only comes up a handful of times a year. How many times does a receiver regain their balance while falling? This is why the lunge/reach verbiage is added. If the player is going to the ground, that means they have to end up on the ground. If the receiver manages to gather themselves, or now, remain upright long enough" and then lunges/reaches, they will still consider it a catch.

Applied directly to the Dez catch. If he would have gathered himself while he was stumbling. Clearly demonstrated that he had regained his balance, and then lunged/reached and went to the ground, they would have ruled it a catch. But because his momentum was taking him to the ground and he never gathered himself, he has to maintain possession through contacting the ground.

 

[DogFace]

Did you even read the post of mine I linked? It answers all the questions you parroted and posed to me. That single post turned the tide of this argument because it lays out the rule clearly via explaining the case plays. Heck, I didn't even remember that Pereira said what he said on game day until recently but what I stated in that post is almost exactly the same as what he said. Again, I know this rule. How about trying to explain how that post is wrong via the rules instead of just repeating someone else's questions? You claimed at one time to be a new ringleader. With my boot on the neck of your current ringleader, here's your chance to establish yourself.

So you can’t answer? Pereira is not being asked that question. That is a video.

Your whole ring leader thing is almost as stupid as that idiotic Star Wars jokes you told. Remember that? It gave a glimpse of who you are.

I never said any such stupid a** thing as I’m the new ringleader. I did point out twice how you referred to Blindfaith as your squadron leader while at the same time feebly attempting to put down others with the dumb ringleader thing. Do you understand why that’s so stupid? I’m guessing in your “mind” being in a squadron and following someone is much cooler than being in a ring and following. The whole thing is moronic.

Answer the question like a man. Quit posting videos of Pereiria. Use your common sense. If going to the ground supersedes the 3 step process than Blandino would have never said he looked for the reach.

Face it. You’re wrong and I now think you know it.

 

[MarcusRock]

8.12 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS
First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. He goes to the ground as a result of the contact, gets his second foot down, and with the ball in his right arm, he braces himself at the three-yard line with his left hand and simultaneously lunges forward toward the goal line. When he lands in the end zone, the ball comes out.
Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The pass is complete. When the receiver hits the ground in the end zone, it is the result of lunging forward after bracing himself at the three-yard line and is not part of the process of the catch. Since the ball crossed the goal line, it is a touchdown. If the ball is short of the goal line, it is a catch, and A2 is down by contact.

An interesting thing to note here is that percy says the 15.95 case play is the one that most resembles the Dez play but it is actually this one instead. He has good reason twist things to stay away from the 8.12 case play because it also proves that the "bajillion football moves" excuse gets trumped by going to the ground unless you can perform one that stops you from going to the ground.

Note that 8.12 says the receiver catches the ball and then the ball ends up in the receiver's right arm and uses his left hand to brace himself before lunging. One of percy's bajillion football moves claims was that Dez "switched hands" with the ball and "tucked it." If "switching hands" or "tucking" the ball in one hand/arm are acts common to the game, why aren't either or both of those the reasons this play becomes a catch?

The kicker as to why he wants to stay away from this caseplay is that it appears in the 2014 AND 2015 rulebook/casebook which means the rule didn't change (except in his own creative mind).

 

[DogFace]

Time + lunge
Balance + lunge
Brace + lunge

Thats directly from the case play. The "Act Common" is (time, balance, brace) or as Blandino says "gather" or as I've been saying "interrupting the fall". The football move (lunge/reach) is used to confirm the process and is used in conjunction with gathering/regaining balance but the lunge/reach is not the main requirement or certainly the sole requirement. It is a companion requirement to gathering/regaining balance.

Here are the case plays, once again.

A.R. 15.95 Act common to game Third-and-10 on A20. Pass over the middle is ruled incomplete at the A30. The receiver controlled the pass with one foot down and was then contacted by a defender. As he went to the ground, he got his second foot down and then still in control of the ball he lunged for the line to gain, losing the ball when he landed.
Ruling: Reviewable. Completed pass. A’s ball first-and-10 on A30. In this situation, the act of lunging is not part of the process of the catch. He has completed the time element required for the pass to be complete and does not have to hold onto the ball when he hits the ground. When he hit the ground, he was down by contact.

GOING TO GROUND
A.R. 15.112 Going to ground before process complete
Second-and-9 on A18. QBA1 throws a pass to A2 at the A31. A2 controls the ball and just as his second foot touches the ground, he is contacted by a defender and driven to the ground. Before the receiver hits the ground, the defender pulls the ball loose. The loose ball is recovered by B3 and returned to the A5. The officials rule catch and fumble.
Ruling: Reviewable. Incomplete pass. Because the receiver did not complete the catch before being contacted, he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground. A’s ball third-and-9 on A18. Adjust clock and start on the snap. Only the Replay Official can initiate a review of this play.

A.R. 8.9 GOING TO THE GROUND—INCOMPLETE PASS
First-and-10-on A30. A1 throws a pass to A2 who dives and controls the ball while airborne at the A38, but the ball comes out as he hits the ground.
Ruling: Second-and-10 on A30. The pass is incomplete, as the receiver went to the ground in the process of making the catch and did not maintain possession of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground.

A.R. 8.10 GOING TO THE GROUND—INCOMPLETE PASS
First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. The contact by B1 sends him across the goal line and to the ground in the end zone. The ball comes out as he hits the ground.
Ruling: Second-and-10 on B25. The pass is incomplete, as the receiver went to the ground in the process of making the catch and did not maintain possession of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground.

A.R. 8.11 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS
First-and-10-on A30. A1 throws a pass to A2 at the A45 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. The contact by B1 causes A2 to go to the ground where he maintains control of the ball.
Ruling: First-and-10 on A45. The pass is complete, as the receiver went to the ground in the process of making the catch and maintained possession of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground. A.R.

8.12 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS
First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. He goes to the ground as a result of the contact, gets his second foot down, and with the ball in his right arm, he braces himself at the three-yard line with his left hand and simultaneously lunges forward toward the goal line. When he lands in the end zone, the ball comes out.
Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The pass is complete. When the receiver hits the ground in the end zone, it is the result of lunging forward after bracing himself at the three-yard line and is not part of the process of the catch. Since the ball crossed the goal line, it is a touchdown. If the ball is short of the goal line, it is a catch, and A2 is down by contact.

A.R. 8.13 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS
First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who is contacted by a defender before he completes the catch at the three-yard line. Despite B2’s contact, A2 keeps his balance, gets both feet down, and lunges over the goal line. The ball comes out as he hits the ground.
Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The receiver went to the ground as the result of lunging for the goal line, not in the process of making the catch

Yes. 15.95 is the nearly identical play. Dez displayed he had time for a football move while going to the ground. Switching the ball to one hand. Preparing to lunge. Then lunging. Then reaching.

That is the caseplay you were saying was incorrect. No?

Im unclear. Was your reason Blandino looked for the football move was that he didn’t speak clearly when explaining? I thought Percy posted another transcript of him saying it again. I could be wrong on that.

You highlighted contacted by a defender. Dez was contacted— twice. Once Shield’s hand rips one of Bryant’s hands momentarily away from the ball. Then he tripped Dez.

 

[BlindFaith]

An interesting thing to note here is that percy says the 15.95 case play is the one that most resembles the Dez play but it is actually this one instead. He has good reason twist things to stay away from this case play because it also proves that the "bajillion football moves" excuse gets trumped by going to the ground unless you can perform one that stops you from going to the ground.

Note that 8.12 says the receiver catches the ball and then the ball ends up in the receiver's right arm and uses his left hand to brace himself before lunging. One of percy's bajillion football moves claims was that Dez "switched hands" with the ball and "tucked it." If "switching hands" or "tucking" the ball in one hand/arm are acts common to the game, why aren't either or both of those the reasons this play becomes a catch?

The kicker as to why he wants to stay away from this caseplay is that it appears in the 2014 AND 2015 rulebook/casebook which means the rule didn't change (except in his own creative mind).

That's exactly it. He never addressed either of the 8.x rules. Last response from him I think was something to the affect that he wasn't aware of what they were. Those case plays clearly establish the gathering concept.

I asked as well, why don't the use cases, any use case, use only any act common to the game as fulfilling the requirement for going to the ground. And the typical response is that it would take hundreds of pages if they include every move someone could make.

 

[DogFace]

The point is, and we've been over this an ungodly number of times and will never agree, is that once they decided he was going to the ground there was no "act common to the game" to look for, and Item 1 applied. I know your instinct will be to tell me that it wrong, but, again, we've been through that over and over, and we are going to have to accept that we don't agree.

No actually we haven’t. None of you can answer that question. Or at least you haven’t. If you have post it and we’ll move on.

Marcus keeps avoiding by posting videos of his hero Pereiria.

Blind said Blandino didn’t speak well. I think.

It should be really simple to answer the question.

 

[DogFace]

That's exactly it. He never address either of the 8.x rules. Last response from him I think was something to the affect that he was aware of what they were. Those case plays clearly establish the gathering concept.

I asked as well, why don't the use cases, any use case, use only any act common to the game as fulfilling the requirement for going to the ground. And the typical response is that it would take hundreds of pages if they include every move someone could make.

Can you at least help him and explain that the rule did change.

Upright long enough isn’t equal to time for a football move.

Upright long enough is very vague. Football move is very specific.

Can we please please pretty please agree that those words mean different things?

As the Squadron leader(that’s the idiotic title @MarcusRock gave you and I’m sorry) please instruct him on your ruling.

 

[BlindFaith]

Yes. 15.95 is the nearly identical play. Dez displayed he had time for a football move while going to the ground. Switching the ball to one hand. Preparing to lunge. Then lunging. Then reaching.

That is the caseplay you were saying was incorrect. No?

Im unclear. Was your reason Blandino looked for the football move was that he didn’t speak clearly when explaining? I thought Percy posted another transcript of him saying it again. I could be wrong on that.

You highlighted contacted by a defender. Dez was contacted— twice. Once Shield’s hand rips one of Bryant’s hands momentarily away from the ball. Then he tripped Dez.

See above. 8.12 is almost identical, except that Dez never regained his balance. I explained clearly in my response to you why it wasn't ruled a catch. A teacher can only teach. Its up to the student to learn.

I originally thought there was some discrepancy with the rule. But after really reading through the other case plays and putting them all into context, it makes sense.

As for Blandino, he was trying to convey the correct message at the very beginning. Saying they were looking for a lunge or reach. What he left off was that it was also required to gather themselves. As the rules clearly say. He did clarify this point in later explanations. If he would have been very clear from the beginning, we may not be where we are with people thinking the rule was changed to cover up the Dez call. The rule was there from the start, Blandino just didn't do a very good job of explaining it, to start. IMO

 

[BlindFaith]

Can you at least help him and explain that the rule did change.

Upright long enough isn’t equal to time for a football move.

Upright long enough is very vague. Football move is very specific.

Can we please please pretty please agree that those words mean different things?

As the Squadron leader(that’s the idiotic title @MarcusRock gave you and I’m sorry) please instruct him on your ruling.

Rule never changed. The wording was modified to clarify the rule.

 

[BlindFaith]

Can you at least help him and explain that the rule did change.

Upright long enough isn’t equal to time for a football move.

Upright long enough is very vague. Football move is very specific.

Can we please please pretty please agree that those words mean different things?

As the Squadron leader(that’s the idiotic title @MarcusRock gave you and I’m sorry) please instruct him on your ruling.

I'm no kind of leader in this. Everyone is contributing.

Regarding the Upright long enough vs time. This is the same thing Percy tried to argue.

Long enough is a time element. Correct? And remember, this is all still in the context of going to the ground. Remaining upright long enough replaces the gathering/regaining balance/bracing verbiage used in 2014. But the rule is the same.

 

[OmerV]

This is the point of contention. They actually do look. Its regaining balance. This is why they clarified the rule to now read "upright long enough".

But this is also why this part of the rule only comes up a handful of times a year. How many times does a receiver regain their balance while falling? This is why the lunge/reach verbiage is added. If the player is going to the ground, that means they have to end up on the ground. If the receiver manages to gather themselves, or now, remain upright long enough" and then lunges/reaches, they will still consider it a catch.

Applied directly to the Dez catch. If he would have gathered himself while he was stumbling. Clearly demonstrated that he had regained his balance, and then lunged/reached and went to the ground, they would have ruled it a catch. But because his momentum was taking him to the ground and he never gathered himself, he has to maintain possession through contacting the ground.

Right, but what I was saying is once they have decided what your wrote above that I have highlighted and underlined there is nothing more for the refs to determine other than whether the receiver maintains control all the way through the player. Once that is decided there is no "act common to the game" to determine.

 

[Reality]

*** READ THIS! ***

We are trying our best to leave this thread open. What we are now doing is removing people (and their posts) who post insults and personal attacks from this thread as that usually means they no longer have a legitimate comment or response to the discussion.

Once you are removed from a thread, you do not regain access to it! So keep that in mind when you post.

 

[OmerV]

No actually we haven’t. None of you can answer that question. Or at least you haven’t. If you have post it and we’ll move on.

Marcus keeps avoiding by posting videos of his hero Pereiria.

Blind said Blandino didn’t speak well. I think.

It should be really simple to answer the question.

I have answered that question. MANY times. I believe Item 1 applies to a receiver that is going to the ground and has no ability to prevent that from happening whether he is contacted or not. And there is nothing in either the rule book or the case book that says differently. Just because you disagree with my viewpoint doesn't mean I haven't answered it. As I've said, at the end of the day it amounts to you and I seeing this differently, but that doesn't mean both sides haven't provided an answer to the question.

 

[BlindFaith]

Right, but what I was saying is once they have decided what your wrote above that I have highlighted and underlined there is nothing more for the refs to determine other than whether the receiver maintains control all the way through the player. Once that is decided there is no "act common to the game" to determine.

I think this is mostly correct. If they don't rule that he ever regained his balance, then maintaining control is enforced. Obviously, if he is ruled to have regained his balance or ruled to have stayed upright long enough as the current wording states, then if he were to lose the ball during the lunge/reach, it would be ruled a fumble. Meaning he becomes a runner at that point.

Just wanted to clarify, and that its not when you go to the ground you absolutely have to control through contacting the ground. Now, as I mentioned before, the regaining balance or staying upright part of the rule affects a very small percentage of going to the ground catches. Most going to the ground plays are fairly straightforward.

 

[MarcusRock]

Right, but what I was saying is once they have decided what your wrote above that I have highlighted and underlined there is nothing more for the refs to determine other than whether the receiver maintains control all the way through the player. Once that is decided there is no "act common to the game" to determine.

I agree with this. This is why I call going to the ground a substitute for the 3-part process because if a receiver hasn't met all 3 parts then surviving the ground acts as a substitute for what was not accomplished, usually the part (c) portion of the rule which is time.

 

[MarcusRock]

I think this is mostly correct. If they don't rule that he ever regained his balance, then maintaining control is enforced. Obviously, if he is ruled to have regained his balance or ruled to have stayed upright long enough as the current wording states, then if he were to lose the ball during the lunge/reach, it would be ruled a fumble. Meaning he becomes a runner at that point.

Just wanted to clarify, and that its not when you go to the ground you absolutely have to control through contacting the ground. Now, as I mentioned before, the regaining balance or staying upright part of the rule affects a very small percentage of going to the ground catches. Most going to the ground plays are fairly straightforward.

That would be only if he were not contacted. If he's contacted as now a runner and then the ball comes loose upon hitting the ground then the ball is dead at that spot.

 

[phildadon86]

Go figure. It upset teams other than the Cowboys so now its time to change it. AGAIN

https://www.thescore.com/s/4301255

"The NFL's competition committee appears to be getting down to business, as it is reportedly meeting in Indianapolis on Monday to try and simplify the league's catch rule, according to Adam Schefter of ESPN, citing a person familiar with the talks."

 

[cowboyblue22]

so when it messed up the steelers its time to change the rule again

 

[EST_1986]

so when it messed up the steelers its time to change the rule again

whatever it takes to fix that ******* catch rule is fine by me

 

[Big_D]

It's been a joke. Should've just left it alone years ago.