Dallas Cowboys Holding Dak Back

stasheroo said:
And do you think it's exactly the same one they ran in 2016?
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Not much difference really
Different faces
I do see Beasley running a bit deeper routes
More multiple receiver sets
But I still don’t see the deep middle used much
Until last week I haven’t seen Zeke used in passing game
Less passes to TE this year but that’s likely more about the talent there
The lions game we executed well
We got in 3rd and short more which is huge
But the overall scheme isn’t that much different and sure wasn’t last year
 
conner01 said:
Not much difference really
Different faces
I do see Beasley running a bit deeper routes
More multiple receiver sets
But I still don’t see the deep middle used much
Until last week I haven’t seen Zeke used in passing game
Less passes to TE this year but that’s likely more about the talent there
The lions game we executed well
We got in 3rd and short more which is huge
But the overall scheme isn’t that much different and sure wasn’t last year
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And I firmly believe it's been figured out by the rest of the league. And that's why Dak and this passing game experience struggles more and more frequently. And why writers like Foxworth have articles like this one saying so. If a former player/writer can figure these things out, what do you think other teams scouting staffs are doing? People paid to pour over data and find each and every tell and tendency they can?

What I see is a league continuing to evolve while we're restricted by coaches unable to keep up.

And for the record, the guy gifted the job of handling this sort of stuff? Judd Garrett. So, yeah...
 
Captain-Crash said:
come on now.. give him the best offensive line in the nfl where he doesn't get any pressure and he's at least a top 15 qb.
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He's very good (107.2 passer rating) even with a normal amount of pressures in a game. The problem is that he's still so bad in games when pressured consistently. Tomorrow night should be another challenge, and another chance to see if he's changed, or if he continues the pattern.
 
stasheroo said:
Of course not.



Here's the deal. Under Garrett and Linehan, there will never be enough talent to overcome their shortcomings as coaches. It doesn't exist. If you want proof, just go and look at what happens when their top talent isn't on the field. The whole Jenga tower falls apart. See last year as the most recent example. Or 2015 without Romo to bail them out.

If the table isn't set perfectly, these guys can't serve a decent dinner. More like they burn the house down.

This year, they don't even have injuries and suspensions to blame for their losses. But sure, let's blame this next generation of players for it. And so on, and so on, and so on.

I'm sure it can't be a head coach that never deserved the job he was gifted in the first place.
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That’s hard to argue but you can say the same for our current QB. Until now, unless he’s surrounded by top level talent he isn’t good, plain and simple. Good QB’s elevate the players around them, with Dak it’s the other way around. I don’t consider this bashing Dak but based on what we’ve seen so far I think it’s true.

Do you honestly think we have enough talent on this team to compete with the top NFC teams? Keep in mind we haven’t beat a team with a winning record and we’ve pretty much played the top 10 worst O lines in the league which may give some of us a false sense of talent.

Edit: My responses will be few and far between due to college football but it’s been nice disagreeing with someone who doesn’t have to be an arrogant jerk about it :)
 
aria said:
That’s hard to argue but you can say the same for our current QB. Until now, unless he’s surrounded by top level talent he isn’t good, plain and simple. Good QB’s elevate the players around them, with Dak it’s the other way around. I don’t consider this bashing Dak but based on what we’ve seen so far I think it’s true.
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I don't dispute that, but I think that only supports the pattern that I've repeatedly talked about. Yet another quarterback struggling under this coaching staff. There are just too many examples to ignore or to simply "blame the quarterback" for everything. You know as well as I do that when these coaches have had other quarterbacks, it's Keystone Kops levels of incompetence. And also notice that our current backup looks exponentially worse the longer he's here as well. There's a pattern.

Do you honestly think we have enough talent on this team to compete with the top NFC teams? Keep in mind we haven’t beat a team with a winning record and we’ve pretty much played the top 10 worst O lines in the league which may give some of us a false sense of talent.
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I certainly do. Jones is insane to try to compare our offense with the Rams in many ways, but he's right about one thing, our offensive line is much better than theirs. Or at least by investment, pedigree, and past performances, it should be.

The fact that we haven't beaten a team with a winning record goes back to Garrett. He never has, at least not with any consistency. And when you're "playing from behind" in the coaching department most weeks? Good luck to players trying to overcome that.

Edit: My responses will be few and far between due to college football but it’s been nice disagreeing with someone who doesn’t have to be an arrogant jerk about it :)
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Likewise. Enjoy the games!
:thumbup:
 
Hadenough said:
But you have to ask yourself! even if levels off and gets a little better whats his ceiling. In todays game I dont see him being anymore than a middle of the pack QB ranked in the 16 17 range in the league. Is that good enough to go anywhere or win anything. I doubt it! Is that good enough to keep Dallas from searching for a premier talent at the QB position. I think it is.
That 13 -3 season is long over and Dak should not be expected to repeat that or should that be considered his ceiling. Defensive coordinators have film and made adjustments and Dak has struggled quite a bit.
Forget about the coaches because Jerry is in a comfort zone and were not getting a new innovative coach who hires his own coaching staff. If this whole coaching staff were fired it would just be replaced with a bunch of subservient coordinators.
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This is beyond Dak. As far as about winning anything, look at the 4 QBs from last years Conference championships, Bortles, Keenum, Foles. The most common denominator for a winning team isn't the QB, it's the defense. To win, you have to have a good defense. Eli isn't a great QB, he's led the NFL in INTs many times, Cam's been to a Superbowl he's a running QB and not particularly, accurate, Manning was a shell of himself and benched during the season for Osweiller, Flacco and Kaep, the list is long for average QBs going to a Superbowl, but you have to have a good defense and you have to be able to assemble a better team, regardless of who the QB is.

Even if we had a different QB, looking at the rest of this team, it is not nearly as good as fans think it is. People keep talking about building a better offense, but this FO has struggled much longer to build a better defense. Even if we had an elite level QB, this team hasn't shown the ability to build a better team. Over the years, some of it has been lack of talent, but also a lack of coaching.
 
percyhoward said:
Same QB, same RB, same OC as when we were leading the league in points per drive halfway through 2017, but a different group of receivers and different OL. You had said, "The problem is not our QB." But when you lead the entire league in tight window attempts, it's safe to say there is plenty of blame to go around.

Separation at the time the receiver is the most open differs from separation at the time of the target, unless the pass is always timed to arrive when the receiver is the most open. Generally, the later the throw, the less the amount of separation. So being late on the throw is one of the things that contributes to the high number of tight-window attempts. Last year, Dak led the NFL in passer rating on tight-window attempts, and somebody tried to say that was because he was often late on his throws. I said that was the wrong conclusion because being late would only lead to a greater percentage of attempts to tight windows -- it wouldn't improve efficiency on those attempts.

Now he actually does lead the league in percentage of attempts to tight windows.
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It still doesn't mean Dak "is late" on those throws or "late" in finding the receiver when most open. It could mean Dak is trained and practiced to go within a set time to read his progressions from receiver to receiver, and possibly those receivers are the ones not getting open early (when Dak looks at them) but instead getting open late after Dak has moved on from that receiver to another?
 
CowboyRoy said:
All you have to do is watch the games. Last game was the first game where Dak had reasonable time in the pocket. And miraculously, he played great.
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You can show them in full every game, but they will refuse to admit the obvious and evident.
 
So I guess all the qbs that actually lead their teams to more than 16 pats a game just have amazing protection.
 
percyhoward said:
He's very good (107.2 passer rating) even with a normal amount of pressures in a game. The problem is that he's still so bad in games when pressured consistently. Tomorrow night should be another challenge, and another chance to see if he's changed, or if he continues the pattern.
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The receivers HAVE TO GET OPEN EARLY. They also HAVE TO be called better plays that allows them to get open early. That's the way to beat constant pressure. That's how Tom Brady does it. That's how Aaron Rodgers does it. That's how Drew Brees does it. That's how Russell Wilson does it, and that's how Carson Wentz does it. Yet, Garrett and Linehan stubbornly refuse to call more quick hitting pass plays in order to counter a constant pass rush. All they want to do is stubbornly run the Zampese deep and long developing pass attack which requires for receivers to not only beat their man in coverage but also get some kind of separation. Plus, the other big key is the Oline needs to consistently give your QB good protection and the time needed to find the late/deep developing open receiver. It's not that hard to understand.
 
Separation.. yeah, all those other receivers always have amazing separation. Those qbs never have to throw to someone with a dB anywhere near the wr.....smh.
 
PAPPYDOG said:
LOL.....man does Dak have a Press Agent printing these BS articles ?????

Sell crazy waving Monkey ........no one is listening except your fellow Dak-bots......who are happy with the 30 th passing game in the NFL....
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Wait these are the same coaches that choose Dak correct? Thought he was better for the team than Romo. They see Dak every day so if this was their choice to run their offense then it starts and ends with coaches.
 
Dak is holding Dak back. In 2016 he was just playing ball. Call the play, run the play, throw the ball dictated by the coverage. He had very few turnovers.

Once the picks started happening in 2017 he became hesitant. Instead of just reading and throwing, now he's waiting to make sure the guy is REALLY open. That hesitation doesn't work in pro football. It's like a golfer with the yips. He doesn't trust his swing, doesn't trust what he sees, and creates his own misfortunes.
 
stasheroo said:
I don't dispute that, but I think that only supports the pattern that I've repeatedly talked about. Yet another quarterback struggling under this coaching staff. There are just too many examples to ignore or to simply "blame the quarterback" for everything. You know as well as I do that when these coaches have had other quarterbacks, it's Keystone Kops levels of incompetence. And also notice that our current backup looks exponentially worse the longer he's here as well. There's a pattern.



I certainly do. Jones is insane to try to compare our offense with the Rams in many ways, but he's right about one thing, our offensive line is much better than theirs. Or at least by investment, pedigree, and past performances, it should be.

The fact that we haven't beaten a team with a winning record goes back to Garrett. He never has, at least not with any consistency. And when you're "playing from behind" in the coaching department most weeks? Good luck to players trying to overcome that.



Likewise. Enjoy the games!
:thumbup:
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Why do you always have to hate on the team? Even after a win? Is it your method of anti-depressant?
 
aria said:
I’m not arguing with most of what you said although Ware was surrounded by much better talent then he was here.

I also don’t agree with making excuses for Tony because of the pressure of winning and losing was on his shoulders. That pressure comes with most QB’s, the difference is the great ones overcome that pressure, Tony didn’t and he wilted in some of the biggest games. He did, not the coaches, although the coaches had their fair share of responsibility for other losses as well.
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Yeah, like the game in Denver where he led the team to 48 points, but the D gave up 51...Tony sure blew that game...lol
 
America's Cowboy said:
It still doesn't mean Dak "is late" on those throws or "late" in finding the receiver when most open. It could mean Dak is trained and practiced to go within a set time to read his progressions from receiver to receiver, and possibly those receivers are the ones not getting open early (when Dak looks at them) but instead getting open late after Dak has moved on from that receiver to another?
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Eh, it's a safe bet that nobody is free of blame here. Here's something from an article that explains it in more detail.

"Prescott and his receivers are a work in progress. So far, they appear to be mismatched. Prescott doesn’t see the field as well versus some zone coverages and looks more relaxed versus man. Several of his receivers struggle with man coverage but find good space versus zone.

What we are seeing on film matches up with the low separation data from NextGen Stats per NFL.com. This also matches up with the high Aggressiveness percentage Prescott is sporting – he is throwing to tightly covered receivers versus man. Prescott’s sometimes delayed delivery plays in too."
 
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