Tanking is not very common in the NFL

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Whatever you say, pal...you know best.

Objective truth has nothing to do with me. Fact is that many NBA teams have tanked to good effect. I listed like 10 for you. If you want to keep on believing that NBA tanking doesn't work anyway when presented with significant evidence to the contrary then so be it but don't make it about me.

Now the NFL is different and its a good discussion to have but I don't see any point to this copout you're laying down.

 

[darthseinfeld]

Every team since the lottery has been incepted has not tanked thus the denominator is not all those teams. outside of that you have the Knicks who got Porzingis, Sonics who got Durant and Westbrook, Cavs got Lebron, and the Nets got Derrick Coleman.

The most famous tank was Hakeem and Sampson for the Rockets.

And there is a guarantee that you will get a top 4 pick and a 65% to to get a top 3. Most NBA drafts have 2 to 5 blue chip players ie difference makers.

The major difference between the NFL and the NBA is the numbers of players on the field/court and roster. OTOH, a high draft pick means you are picking at the top of every round where it is meaningful whereas the NBA second round hit rate is minuscule.

If you are only looking at first round there are only a couple of positions worth tanking for. I'm not sold on Dak at his asking price and would be fine picking a top QB; a DT like Brown from Auburn would solve a lot of defensive problems.

Dont bother. He is too busy watching Star Trek to make any counterpoint

 

[KingintheNorth]

Cowboys would never tank. They don't have the foresight. Jerry is optimistic to a fault and obviously Garrett wants an extension. Neither are capable of doing what it takes to win but they would never admit failure, even privately.

Plus, what would be tanking for? I know Dak's critics will say QB, but again, I don't see Jerry straying from his high opinion of Dak. Chase Young? Darn good football player but hardly worthy of purposely planning on losing. No other player moves the needle. We are likely looking at a middle of the pack draft pick, 16 to 20 range. Our only hope is new coaches with modern strategies and schemes, who can motivate the core of talent on this team.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The big difference in the NFL you need 22 starters and probably 10 or more key reserves. One or two players usually isnt going to be enough for a turnaround. In both sports, wheather you tank or dont tank, you are only going to build a contender if you have a strong organization. Look at Lucks career. The Colts failure to draft well kept to where his high water mark is the divison round. Anthony Davis is a good example in basketball. Generational talent. Pels could never put a decent team around him and they got nowhere

Exactly. We need TE, DT, S, and possibly QB. That being said no team is stacked on 22 starters.

Bottomline for me is that I don't see this club going anywhere as long as Garrett and his idiotic conservatism is at the helm. Tanking is not going to negatively affect the incoming regime and high draft picks helps bring in better talent than low ones.

One thing that has happened in the NFL is quality coaches taking over quality rosters from inferior coaches and making a huge difference. Harbaugh in SF, Belichick and the Pats, Reid and the Chiefs, Sean Payton and the Saints come to mind.

 

[darthseinfeld]

Cowboys would never tank. They don't have the foresight. Jerry is optimistic to a fault and obviously Garrett wants an extension. Neither are capable of doing what it takes to win but they would never admit failure, even privately.

Plus, what would be tanking for? I know Dak's critics will say QB, but again, I don't see Jerry straying from his high opinion of Dak. Chase Young? Darn good football player but hardly worthy of purposely planning on losing. No other player moves the needle. We are likely looking at a middle of the pack draft pick, 16 to 20 range. Our only hope is new coaches with modern strategies and schemes, who can motivate the core of talent on this team.

@FuzzyLumpkins makes a good point about guys like Hill and McGovern. Ill add Donavan Wilson to that. When you are out, it makes sense to play some of your younger players that may not be ready to get a good look at them in a live game. As well as giving them some experience. Take a a few L's and improve your draft slot

 

[darthseinfeld]

Exactly. We need TE, DT, S, and possibly QB. That being said no team is stacked on 22 starters.

Bottomline for me is that I don't see this club going anywhere as long as Garrett and his idiotic conservatism is at the helm. Tanking is not going to negatively affect the incoming regime and high draft picks helps bring in better talent than low ones.

One thing that has happened in the NFL is quality coaches taking over quality rosters from inferior coaches and making a huge difference. Harbaugh in SF, Belichick and the Pats, Reid and the Chiefs, Sean Payton and the Saints come to mind.

Personally I think Garrett needs to get to the Super Bowl to be back. Maybe NFCCG. People think that Jerry is too willing to accept his mediocrity. I think they are way off. He went 7-1 to close the year, and won a playoff game. Wasnt enough to get extension. Wasnt enough to keep hin from going into the last year of his contract. I think he needs sky high results, or he is done here

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Personally I think Garrett needs to get to the Super Bowl to be back. Maybe NFCCG. People think that Jerry is too willing to accept his mediocrity. I think they are way off. He went 7-1 to close the year, and won a playoff game. Wasnt enough to get extension. Wasnt enough to keep hin from going into the last year of his contract. I think he needs sky high results, or he is done here

If he pulls his head out of his backside and allows Richard and Moore to coordinate their defenses then I can see us coming back but Richard is a cover 3 guru and Moore is a motion, misdirection and RPO guy. As long as we continue to play man and vanilla Coryell we aren't going anywhere.

I've been able to be patient with Garrett's inexperience because he has an eye for talent and develops it but this stupidity of relying on **** from what worked 25 years ago has made me lose any faith in his prospects going forward.

 

[KingintheNorth]

@FuzzyLumpkins makes a good point about guys like Hill and McGovern. Ill add Donavan Wilson to that. When you are out, it makes sense to play some of your younger players that may not be ready to get a good look at them in a live game. As well as giving them some experience. Take a a few L's and improve your draft slot

I'm 100% on board. I just see that as evaluating young players so you know what you have moving forward, as opposed to flat out "not trying to win"

The Cowboys have too much talent (and too much ego) to take L's. As much as many of us think this season has been disastrous, I think most people still feel we're a 7 to 9 win team. These guys won't lay down. They may not be prepared, they may be slow to get sharp, but they are going to keep playing hard. Dak, Zeke, Cooper, Witten, etc are way too competitive to tank. They just don't have adequate help from the sideline.

Drafting 5th versus drafting 17th won't be the reason why we improve next year. The issue is culture and coaching. The talent is 90% there to me. Get better coaching and you will get better results.

 

[darthseinfeld]

I'm 100% on board. I just see that as evaluating young players so you know what you have moving forward, as opposed to flat out "not trying to win"

The Cowboys have too much talent (and too much ego) to take L's. As much as many of us think this season has been disastrous, I think most people still feel we're a 7 to 9 win team. These guys won't lay down. They may not be prepared, they may be slow to get sharp, but they are going to keep playing hard. Dak, Zeke, Cooper, Witten, etc are way too competitive to tank. They just don't have adequate help from the sideline.

Drafting 5th versus drafting 17th won't be the reason why we improve next year. The issue is culture and coaching. The talent is 90% there to me. Get better coaching and you will get better results.

Fisher in regards to the Mavericks calls it "Organic Tanking"

 

[darthseinfeld]

If he pulls his head out of his backside and allows Richard and Moore to coordinate their defenses then I can see us coming back but Richard is a cover 3 guru and Moore is a motion, misdirection and RPO guy. As long as we continue to play man and vanilla Coryell we aren't going anywhere.

I've been able to be patient with Garrett's inexperience because he has an eye for talent and develops it but this stupidity of relying on **** from what worked 25 years ago has made me lose any faith in his prospects going forward.

From what Ive seen these past few games, I dont I see our old ways going away until he is gone.

 

[KingintheNorth]

vanilla Coryell we aren't going anywhere

...that and the lame Bend-But-Don't Break Defense. We are running an 80s offense and a 90s defense, and people wonder why we can't take it to the next level.

We always complain about Jerry's meddling but he absolutely needs to tell Garrett to let Moore completely run the offense from this point on. Garrett's offense has proven beyond all counts to be obvious and ineffective.

 

[darthseinfeld]

Exactly. We need TE, DT, S, and possibly QB. That being said no team is stacked on 22 starters.

Bottomline for me is that I don't see this club going anywhere as long as Garrett and his idiotic conservatism is at the helm. Tanking is not going to negatively affect the incoming regime and high draft picks helps bring in better talent than low ones.

One thing that has happened in the NFL is quality coaches taking over quality rosters from inferior coaches and making a huge difference. Harbaugh in SF, Belichick and the Pats, Reid and the Chiefs, Sean Payton and the Saints come to mind.

Then there is the Prescott question. Do you bring in a guy that wants to coach Prescott. Or do you bring in a coach and let him decide what he wants to do at QB. And if so is Prescott valuable enough a trade chip to get you a legit franchise level QB in this draft

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Then there is the Prescott question. Do you bring in a guy that wants to coach Prescott. Or do you bring in a coach and let him decide what he wants to do at QB. And if so is Prescott valuable enough a trade chip to get you a legit franchise level QB in this draft

I don't think you can get anything for Dak that would be better than a comp pick would garner. Some team is going to offer him $30+m on the open market; that is at least a second. What do you think we could get for him off a franchise tag?

I would discuss what any HC thought about Dak. If a WCO type comes in, for example, and says he can maximize Dak's skills I would take a long listen. that being said I just don't think Dak is worth what he is going to demand on the market. His ball placement is just not good enough IMO.

Overall we need to start drafting top 50 QBs.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

From what Ive seen these past few games, I dont I see our old ways going away until he is gone.

Believe me I am not holding my breath.

 

[GenoT]

The big difference in the NFL you need 22 starters and probably 10 or more key reserves. One or two players usually isnt going to be enough for a turnaround. In both sports, wheather you tank or dont tank, you are only going to build a contender if you have a strong organization. Look at Lucks career. The Colts failure to draft well kept to where his high water mark is the divison round. Anthony Davis is a good example in basketball. Generational talent. Pels could never put a decent team around him and they got nowhere

I shall leave you to your agenda.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I shall leave you to your agenda.

When the agenda is looking at facts comprehensively in order to form a belief or opinion then it's not a bad thing.

Your agenda seems to be stubborn refusal to examine beliefs when presented with contrary evidence.

If you don't want to change your mind then fine but this doesn't seem to be about objective reality for you but rather that someone has a different opinion that you don't like. that bothers you and that is kinda sad.

 

[tyke1doe]

True tanking is done by the organization not the players. Its an effort by the organization to lose games in order to get the best assets for a rebuild. When players check out, thats not tanking. Thats players being weak minded

A distinction without a difference. Shrug.