Dak Named most valuable player in NFC East over last five years!

Kevinicus said:

First, let me apologize for my last post. It wasn't much more than a snipe. I should be better than that. I'm sorry.

Secondly, I don't have issues with anyone who supports Dak, I disagree with them. I disagree with most people who are harsh on Romo, but do have an issue with a few who go beyond that. I'm not sure what you mean by calling Romo "exactly what he is."

To the point that was being made earlier (though not referenced in the post I quoted), PFF is either a good source, or it's not. So if someone uses PFF to prop up Dak, while at the same time they are highly critical of Romo, then logically, pointing out that PFF lists Romo above Dak hurts their argument quite a bit.

And I don't understand your logic with the MVP comment. Clearly, if someone was a top contender for MVP, then their ceiling can be no lower than that. Cam Newton won MVP, so his ceiling is MVP level. He may never reach it again, but it is (or at least was) his ceiling. A player's peak/ceiling is not defined by what level they stay at the longest, it's simply the very top end they are capable of, even if only fleeting.

Click to expand...

Cam Newton actually won MVP though so I guess yes you could say his ceiling was MVP. Romo never did.

But my point was.....I feel like if you had a 10+ career with 1....MAYBE 2 years at a MVP level....and the rest of it was above average.....that's not a MVP ceiling. Like regardless of how we feel about Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees....their ceiling was that of a MVP because essentially every year they suited up they were a MVP candidate.

Lamar Jackson won MVP last year....I can't say his ceiling is MVP Caliber if he only has one year out of his career actually contending for a MVP.

So I guess that's our disagreement. You are suppose to hit your ceiling for more than one year of your career. If not, that wasn't a ceiling that was a fluke.

And Romo had a above average career. That's what I mean by calling him exactly what he is. A above average quarterback with a above average career.


And PFF is what it is. PFF has been Dak and Romo friendly so I Don't see why any of their fans would discredit it.

If Dak is so darn valuable, some team should be willing to give us two no. 1's for next draft season right now. Hurry up!!!

rocyaice said:

Cam Newton actually won MVP though so I guess yes you could say his ceiling was MVP. Romo never did.

But my point was.....I feel like if you had a 10+ career with 1....MAYBE 2 years at a MVP level....and the rest of it was above average.....that's not a MVP ceiling. Like regardless of how we feel about Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees....their ceiling was that of a MVP because essentially every year they suited up they were a MVP candidate.

Lamar Jackson won MVP last year....I can't say his ceiling is MVP Caliber if he only has one year out of his career actually contending for a MVP.

So I guess that's our disagreement. You are suppose to hit your ceiling for more than one year of your career. If not, that wasn't a ceiling that was a fluke.

And Romo had a above average career. That's what I mean by calling him exactly what he is. A above average quarterback with a above average career.


And PFF is what it is. PFF has been Dak and Romo friendly so I Don't see why any of their fans would discredit it.

Click to expand...

While, I definitely think Romo had a career that was WELL above average, we'll just disagree there. PFF being a poor gauge, but also being right sometimes are not mutually exclusive. But, it wasn't a question of discrediting PFF, it was pointing out the inconsistent argument by those who support one player with PFF, but tear down another, despite PFF.

And a ceiling is a ceiling. It's not a term meant to describe consistency, but the peak possibility of a player. Whether it is achieved for only year, or 10, it's still the same. Actually, they don't even have to achieve it. Many players are capable of more (and thus have higher ceilings) than they ever achieve.

Kevinicus said:

While, I definitely think Romo had a career that was WELL above average, we'll just disagree there. PFF being a poor gauge, but also being right sometimes are not mutually exclusive. But, it wasn't a question of discrediting PFF, it was pointing out the inconsistent argument by those who support one player with PFF, but tear down another, despite PFF.

And a ceiling is a ceiling. It's not a term meant to describe consistency, but the peak possibility of a player. Whether it is achieved for only year, or 10, it's still the same. Actually, they don't even have to achieve it. Many players are capable of more (and thus have higher ceilings) than they ever achieve.

Click to expand...

So you believe Lamar Jackson had a higher ceiling than Tony Romo?

rocyaice said:

So you believe Lamar Jackson had a higher ceiling than Tony Romo?

Click to expand...

He might. I don't have a great feel on exactly how Good Lamar can be, just yet. Lamar is a completely different skill set, that's for sure. If he can be anywhere close to Romo as a passer, then the running aspect would surely push him higher.

I also don't think Romo achieved his ceiling either, health being the primary factor.

Kevinicus said:

While, I definitely think Romo had a career that was WELL above average, we'll just disagree there. PFF being a poor gauge, but also being right sometimes are not mutually exclusive. But, it wasn't a question of discrediting PFF, it was pointing out the inconsistent argument by those who support one player with PFF, but tear down another, despite PFF.

And a ceiling is a ceiling. It's not a term meant to describe consistency, but the peak possibility of a player. Whether it is achieved for only year, or 10, it's still the same. Actually, they don't even have to achieve it. Many players are capable of more (and thus have higher ceilings) than they ever achieve.

Click to expand...

I tried to point out something similar earlier. PFF is not really a fan of Dak IMO. They have said that his stats are a bit of a misnomer and that he is not as good as his stats indicate. In short, they are really not fans IMO. To me, this kind of thing is nothing but click bait. What does it actually prove? Not much.

It is what it is.

CowboyRoy said:

casual fans that don’t understand the game will say that. Fans where it suits their agenda say that.

And you never responded to one of my comments. You used to be a blatant Dak hater. What changed your tune?

Click to expand...

I see that fans that don't say things in a way that you can agree with are fans that don't understand the game or ones that have an agenda. Just like how you define who is a hater or not. There are those of us who try not to be either haters nor homers. I've already made clear that back in 2016, I thought that Dak was going to be a whole lot more than he actually has become. Back then I thought that him and Wentz would be the next generation of Quarterbacks that came after your Brady's, Peyton Manning's. That picture was shattered when flaws were exposed in 2017 and 2018. I honestly didn't think that he could fix his blemishes, since most quarterbacks don't. But I got to admit that Dak worked hard in the off season and became a good quarterback. I'm neither a homer nor a hater. You might think that my opinions and analysis are all wrong, and they very well may be, but I got no personal emotional stake in Dak either way. Dak isn't neither as good as I thought he would be back in 2016, nor as bad as I was afraid he could be back in 2018. He is good but not Elite.

Nav22 said:

Another kick in the teeth of Dak’s idiot haters.

Happy Friday!

Click to expand...

I hate idiots to. I did not know Dak had some of his own.

Gangsta Spanksta said:

I see that fans that don't say things in a way that you can agree with are fans that don't understand the game or ones that have an agenda. Just like how you define who is a hater or not. There are those of us who try not to be either haters nor homers. I've already made clear that back in 2016, I thought that Dak was going to be a whole lot more than he actually has become. Back then I thought that him and Wentz would be the next generation of Quarterbacks that came after your Brady's, Peyton Manning's. That picture was shattered when flaws were exposed in 2017 and 2018. I honestly didn't think that he could fix his blemishes, since most quarterbacks don't. But I got to admit that Dak worked hard in the off season and became a good quarterback. I'm neither a homer nor a hater. You might think that my opinions and analysis are all wrong, and they very well may be, but I got no personal emotional stake in Dak either way. Dak isn't neither as good as I thought he would be back in 2016, nor as bad as I was afraid he could be back in 2018. He is good but not Elite.

Click to expand...

So he is 2nd tier?

Dak is not elite? No kidding. Does a QB have to be "elite"?

Aikman wasn't elite, Romo wasn't elite.

I remember quite distinctly you throwing out Dak hate in 2017 and 2018. Seems only recently you have started admitting Dak is a good QB. Are you denying this?

dfense said:

I hate idiots to. I did not know Dak had some of his own.

Click to expand...

*Too

BIG fricking deal! I sure hope that his 8-8 trophy goes next to his "5" Partition trophies...…...

CowboyRoy said:

So he is 2nd tier?

Dak is not elite? No kidding. Does a QB have to be "elite"?

Aikman wasn't elite, Romo wasn't elite.

I remember quite distinctly you throwing out Dak hate in 2017 and 2018. Seems only recently you have started admitting Dak is a good QB. Are you denying this?

Click to expand...

I'm neither a Hater nor a Homer; that has always been my stance. You and some of the other fan of Dak's may see me as one or whatever, but I'm sure others got that I never was on either of the extreme side on this board. Like I said, Dak deserves some props for improving his game during the offseason, especially since it was areas of the game where most quarterbacks won't ever improve their game at once they reach the NFL.

Gangsta Spanksta said:

I'm neither a Hater nor a Homer; that has always been my stance. You and some of the other fan of Dak's may see me as one or whatever, but I'm sure others got that I never was on either of the extreme side on this board. Like I said, Dak deserves some props for improving his game during the offseason, especially since it was areas of the game where most quarterbacks won't ever improve their game at once they reach the NFL.

Click to expand...

Dak improved because that's typically what QB's do. Many acted like he was a finishes product early on. QB development. Its called experience. Grooming. One of the big reasons I wanted him to stick when Romo came back. Some of the things, he was already good at it, some just thought he wasn't. Or simply got it wrong.

AS you said, first you thought he was good, then you thought he wasn't, ect……..ect……

Dak was always good, it was obvious. There was just certain factors AROUND Dak that caused his play to drop, like it would any young QB. All things someone like me would have pointed out at the time. Things others would have said are "excuses" and probably uttered the phrase "why would I want a QB that needs everything perfect around him".

Things like:

-Oline injuries and play
-Play calling and scheme limiting the deep ball
-lack of receiving weapons, deep threat, or #1 WR.

Around 3 years is when you should really see a QB start to come into his own and take the mantle. That's about where Dak did it. 2019 was by far his best year as a QB overall. Not quite the clutch wins at the end like previously but I think we can all agree that it was for the best as Garrett got the boot.

Tony Romo’s ceiling will never be known, as his whole career outside 2014 was with Jason Garrett as OC and him not even in game planning meetings by the HC. Jerry forced Garrett’s hand when Romo got the new contract and Jason even had to sell it like it was a collective decision.

Garrett didn’t touch the offense after 2014 when Jerry banned him. Dak was working with Linehan or Moore and an already Completely revamped zone running game established by Callahan, who replaced Garrett’s guy Houck in 2012.

Garrett had no clue how to combine a running game with a passing game, let alone his passing game was built completely on long developing pass routes and little play action and movement. Guys like Barber were basically check-down valves in the passing game.

When Jerry pulled the strings from Garrett, Dallas was among the bottom on the league in play action usage. Dak’s first season with Linehan, Dallas jumper to top 3.

CowboyRoy said:

Dak improved because that's typically what QB's do. Many acted like he was a finishes product early on. QB development. Its called experience. Grooming. One of the big reasons I wanted him to stick when Romo came back. Some of the things, he was already good at it, some just thought he wasn't. Or simply got it wrong.

Click to expand...

If that was true, then all these prospects coming from the NFL, many of whom had better college careers than Dak did would typically improve. The reality is most don't improve enough and can't make it in the pros. And there have been plenty of players who have had flaws exposed in them in the past and were unable to correct those flaws. There are some flaws that are much harder to correct than others. I know you won't agree with how I see things, and that you consider yourself someone knowledgeable about football. But there are plenty of people who think that dak did so well in 2016 because teams didn't have an answer for him, but that he was later figured out. And I still believe that to be true, but I think that he is one of the few that was able to improve his game, fix flaws that most people aren't able to fix at such a high level of the game. You make it sound like all and any quarterbacks generally improve in the NFL, and that is just not true, demonstrated over and over against with 1st round draft picks not making it in the NFL.

AS you said, first you thought he was good, then you thought he wasn't, ect……..ect……

Dak was always good, it was obvious.

Click to expand...

The way you talk, with such a black and white view point, how things the way you see them are always obviously true, how everyone should see it, well, it just makes people not take you and your opinion seriously. Dak has not always been good. He started off as an unknown and could've been another gimmick player, had his flaws exposed, worked hard and overcame his short comings. He has also lost some of what made him special in 2016 as well, as in that he doesn't play with the same instinct he had in the first season. The cowboys still have been following their trend of having a good season followed by a bad one with Dak here.

There was just certain factors AROUND Dak that caused his play to drop, like it would any young QB. All things someone like me would have pointed out at the time. Things others would have said are "excuses" and probably uttered the phrase "why would I want a QB that needs everything perfect around him".

Click to expand...

And there again is some of what makes others not take you and your arguments as seriously as you want. Again, everything is black and white, and it is assumed that your viewpoint is right, with a bit of arrogance thrown in that anyone who can't see it doesn't know anything about football. There are those of us who prefer to talk on forums where people can have different opinions, without one side constantly posting things that won't change the other sides mind, saying things like how can't anyone see how great such and such is because of this. You say like any young QB would above, and I point out that most young QB won't make it in the NFL

Just watched the 2007 AFC Championship game between the Colts and the Patriots. Brady threw an int to end the comeback and give the game to the Colts. Both Manning and Brady missed wide open receivers during the game. Two of the greatest of all time.

Gangsta Spanksta said:

If that was true, then all these prospects coming from the NFL, many of whom had better college careers than Dak did would typically improve. The reality is most don't improve enough and can't make it in the pros. And there have been plenty of players who have had flaws exposed in them in the past and were unable to correct those flaws. There are some flaws that are much harder to correct than others. I know you won't agree with how I see things, and that you consider yourself someone knowledgeable about football. But there are plenty of people who think that dak did so well in 2016 because teams didn't have an answer for him, but that he was later figured out. And I still believe that to be true, but I think that he is one of the few that was able to improve his game, fix flaws that most people aren't able to fix at such a high level of the game. You make it sound like all and any quarterbacks generally improve in the NFL, and that is just not true, demonstrated over and over against with 1st round draft picks not making it in the NFL.



The way you talk, with such a black and white view point, how things the way you see them are always obviously true, how everyone should see it, well, it just makes people not take you and your opinion seriously. Dak has not always been good. He started off as an unknown and could've been another gimmick player, had his flaws exposed, worked hard and overcame his short comings. He has also lost some of what made him special in 2016 as well, as in that he doesn't play with the same instinct he had in the first season. The cowboys still have been following their trend of having a good season followed by a bad one with Dak here.



And there again is some of what makes others not take you and your arguments as seriously as you want. Again, everything is black and white, and it is assumed that your viewpoint is right, with a bit of arrogance thrown in that anyone who can't see it doesn't know anything about football. There are those of us who prefer to talk on forums where people can have different opinions, without one side constantly posting things that won't change the other sides mind, saying things like how can't anyone see how great such and such is because of this. You say like any young QB would above, and I point out that most young QB won't make it in the NFL

Click to expand...

don't improve enough and can't make it in the pros.

You basically just defeated your own argument right there with that one word.

This gave me great insight into why you don't understand the QB position and why you have been so wrong on Dak. Interesting stuff. There are many CASUAL fans like you that don't get it either.

Say all the BS you want, I nailed Dak Prescott from the beginning. Did the same thing with Romo all the way to the eventual takeover from Dak.

The simple truth is that some of us just understand the game more than others. Some see talent and can tell long before guys like you can. If I speak matter of fact its because I am confident in my opinions.

Honestly, most of this stuff is really easy stuff. I don't consider figuring this stuff out to be brain surgery. It really blows my mind that guys like you cant see it and then after 4 years of watching Dak you still struggle to see it.

Dak is going to ABSOLUTELY kill it this year. Some rankings already have him in the top 5 QB's in the NFL. I don't have him there yet, but its obvious they are projecting some as what to he will do this year.

Don't get upset, maybe at some point you just need to start listening and stop talking.

ABQCOWBOY said:

Lot of that going around in the NFC East. To be honest, it's been a really bad division for awhile now IMO. I remember when the NFC East was the CLASS of the entire league. For years and years, the East was the Beast.

Sigh.........

Click to expand...

If we are being honest yes NFCE has been up and down, hell Eagles won the SB in 2018 so how bad is this division?

Doomsday101 said:

If we are being honest yes NFCE has been up and down, hell Eagles won the SB in 2018 so how bad is this division?

Click to expand...

Pretty bad and it wasn't 2018/2019 season, it was actually 2017/2018 season. We are not coming up on the 20/21 season. That was 3 years ago but even in that season, only one playoff team, no wild card and the next best record in the East was 9-7, the Cowboys. Even that year, the NFCE was bad. In fact, going back to 2010/11, we have only had two season where the NFCE has fielded two teams into the playoffs. In years past, the NFC East dominated the NFL landscape. From 83 to 96, the NFCE won eight Super Bowls.

Yes, honestly, the NFCE has been pretty bad over the last several years.

Rockport said:

Just watched the 2007 AFC Championship game between the Colts and the Patriots. Brady threw an int to end the comeback and give the game to the Colts. Both Manning and Brady missed wide open receivers during the game. Two of the greatest of all time.

Click to expand...

Brady's a bum, 9 SB appearances just a jag like Dak right? Thanks for the laugh of the day.