Make a good O better or a poor D average?

jaythecowboy

jaythecowboy

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CowboyRoy said:
We already have plenty of studs on offense that are going to get us lots of TD's. We have very little on D that will save us a TD.

All your doing by throwing the TD to Pitts is taking one away from Lamb.

Very simple logic.
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The Cowboys are one of the worst redzone teams in the league. Pitts would improve the redzone offense dramatically.
 
superonyx

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CouchCoach said:
We all know the owner is a follow the ball GM and I certainly can't blame him, I think every owner would be that type of GM. That sells tickets and makes happy fans.

The question is how to use that 1st pick. Make what's good better or what's poor average?

My first inclination is if not now, when? When do they start to fix this defense? Used a 1st on a WR last draft, going to do that again with an OL or TE or even wackier, a WR? They could trade Gallup and use that 10 pick on Waddle or Smith. Do not put that past this WR loving GM.

But that's not the point. Can they accomplish more this season making that offense more potent than bringing that defense up to average? This offense has the signs of being one that can average 30 ppg and all they need to do is keep 10 of their opponents under that to win the East. I do think 10 wins takes it.

So, where I've been all about fixing this D and getting started on that asap, I question whether that is the right approach for this season. And this season is all I am talking about here, not the future, 2021.

This team will ride the offense as far as it can take them so are they better off to make it better and deeper?

I do not think Pitts or Sewell will be there but Slater, Waddle and Smith might be.

Is this a case of a repeat of the 1st in 2020? At 10, there really isn't a D player but there is at least one O player worthy of that pick?

Surtain is the only D player I've seen continually break the top 10 at 10. I think that is because of the perceived need of Dallas for a D player more than where he truly falls on most boards. Are Waddle and Smith better WR's than he is a CB? Slater a better OL than he is a CB?
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All great points.... but the thing that keeps crawling into my head is last years draft.
If we did what this thread implied then we would have LSUs Chaison instead of Ceedee Lamb. I’m not sure if anyone followed the edge rushers progress but he has been a complete bust so far and only had 1 sack in 16 games while getting bullied vs the run.

I want us to focus on defense. But a top 10 pick needs to be on a player who deserves to be a top 10 pick. Otherwise trade out or draft the player who deserves to be drafted in that position.
 
superonyx

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stasheroo said:
Look no further than last year. The Cowboys were scoring just fine, but they were losing because they couldn’t stop anything or anybody. That must change.
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Agreed. But what’s the best method to change this? Over drafting someone because they play defense or filling needs with veteran free agents like Sherman ect?
 
Stash

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superonyx said:
Agreed. But what’s the best method to change this? Over drafting someone because they play defense or filling needs with veteran free agents like Sherman ect?
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Given how heavily invested the team is in their own players, the cap greatly limits what they can do in free agency. That said, if I can sign Sherman at a reasonable cost? I’ll gladly shuffle things around. But I’d have to know before the draft.
 

Techsass

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We have to do something for the defensive side. Actually we need to do more than is realistically probable in just 1 draft.

I'm having a hard time accepting that there aren't any elite defensive players in this draft. Since I don't watch college, I could be totally mistaken on that. If there aren't any elites & the D players in the 1st aren't much better than those in the 2nd, then I hope we can trade down & get a later 1st & another 2nd. I'd prefer quality over quantity, but if it isn't there I'll settle for 3 very good players. We just have to make sure they're solid long term choices.

Now if a blue chip Offensive player that we can use is there at 10, I might take the pick over the trade down. He'd have to be an All-Pro candidate type player though, not just a likely starter with a chance at a few Pro-Bowls.
 

kskboys

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superonyx said:
Agreed. But what’s the best method to change this? Over drafting someone because they play defense or filling needs with veteran free agents like Sherman ect?
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Or taking players we're infatuated w/ that don't improve our team.
 

kskboys

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Techsass said:
We have to do something for the defensive side. Actually we need to do more than is realistically probable in just 1 draft.

I'm having a hard time accepting that there aren't any elite defensive players in this draft. Since I don't watch college, I could be totally mistaken on that. If there aren't any elites & the D players in the 1st aren't much better than those in the 2nd, then I hope we can trade down & get a later 1st & another 2nd. I'd prefer quality over quantity, but if it isn't there I'll settle for 3 very good players. We just have to make sure they're solid long term choices.

Now if a blue chip Offensive player that we can use is there at 10, I might take the pick over the trade down. He'd have to be an All-Pro candidate type player though, not just a likely starter with a chance at a few Pro-Bowls.
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Parsons is elite. Prolly 3rd best player in the draft, behind Lawrence and Sewell.

Most people don't appear to understand drafting D and what it can do for your team.

Rousseau screams upside, and could turn out to be the best player in the draft, but he's just soooooooooooooo raw. Dude had 15.5 sacks as a Sophomore. For those of you who don't know, THAT'S A LOT!!!!

Surtain looks as if he'll be a quality starter for the next 10 years.

Every year, it's the same thing. We just have to take an O player in the 1st. It's the same people saying the same things, no one on D is worth that high of a pick.

And yet, TB just won a super bowl, a primary reason being highly drafted D players such as Devin White, Vita Vea, and a major emphasis on D. Make no mistake, D wins championships. Must have.
 

Techsass

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kumizi said:
We need like 4-5 new defensive starters just to make this D average.
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That's what's so sad about our D. There isn't a single group that we can brag on. Heck we have to couch our praises for the best individual players with caveats.
 
superonyx

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kskboys said:
Or taking players we're infatuated w/ that don't improve our team.
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I guess if you are arguing from the position that a projected franchise level player like Sewell or Pitts doesn’t improve on Jarwin/Schultz and Connor Williams then you are right.

I guess you know something NFL scouts making millions per year don’t.
 
superonyx

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kskboys said:
Parsons is elite. Prolly 3rd best player in the draft, behind Lawrence and Sewell.

Most people don't appear to understand drafting D and what it can do for your team.

Rousseau screams upside, and could turn out to be the best player in the draft, but he's just soooooooooooooo raw. Dude had 15.5 sacks as a Sophomore. For those of you who don't know, THAT'S A LOT!!!!

Surtain looks as if he'll be a quality starter for the next 10 years.

Every year, it's the same thing. We just have to take an O player in the 1st. It's the same people saying the same things, no one on D is worth that high of a pick.

And yet, TB just won a super bowl, a primary reason being highly drafted D players such as Devin White, Vita Vea, and a major emphasis on D. Make no mistake, D wins championships. Must have.
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And this same logic last draft would have us with the edge rusher from LSU that has been a huge bust over CD Lamb.

love drafting defense. But not blindly while pretending someone is better than they are just because they play a position we need to upgrade.

the draft isn’t the only way to upgrade. Tampa had those same players you mentioned the previous season and didn’t win Jack.
 
CATCH17

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Unless it’s a pass rusher or a Earl Thomas type of talent at Free safety then I’m looking for every excuse possible to draft an impact offensive player in round 1.

If your front 4 is legit then you can get by with not much behind it.: Especially if you just chill in Cover 3 like teams are doing these days and making QBs patiently check down all game.
 

kskboys

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superonyx said:
I guess if you are arguing from the position that a projected franchise level player like Sewell or Pitts doesn’t improve on Jarwin/Schultz and Connor Williams then you are right.

I guess you know something NFL scouts making millions per year don’t.
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Nice presumption. However, you have a couple things incorrect.

1. Scouts don't put teams together. They scout individual players and project pro success.

2. You are completely ignoring the real purpose of drafting, to improve your team. Replacing a player who is an 8 w/ a player who is an 8.5 begets minimal improvement.

3. Teams w/o competent D's do not win super bowls. Ever.

Looks as if it's you are pretending to know something that no one else knows. Try again.
 

kskboys

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superonyx said:
And this same logic last draft would have us with the edge rusher from LSU that has been a huge bust over CD Lamb.

love drafting defense. But not blindly while pretending someone is better than they are just because they play a position we need to upgrade.

the draft isn’t the only way to upgrade. Tampa had those same players you mentioned the previous season and didn’t win Jack.
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No it doesn't.

You keep screaming BPA in a very weak voice and proclaiming that all you have to do is take what you perceive as the best player. Meanwhile, you are conveniently ignoring the thousands of details that goes into successful drafting. No matter how many times you trot out Lamb as your sole example, there are many many things to be considered. Just willy nilly taking any position w/o regard for scheme, weaknesses shored up, and general improvement is the stupidest way to draft there is. No one uses that method because it is so incredibly stupid, not to mention the fact that in most years you're not going to find a clear BPA. It's mostly opinion when you're comparing closely graded players.
 
superonyx

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kskboys said:
Nice presumption. However, you have a couple things incorrect.

1. Scouts don't put teams together. They scout individual players and project pro success.

2. You are completely ignoring the real purpose of drafting, to improve your team. Replacing a player who is an 8 w/ a player who is an 8.5 begets minimal improvement.

3. Teams w/o competent D's do not win super bowls. Ever.

Looks as if it's you are pretending to know something that no one else knows. Try again.
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When you need to exaggerate to try to make a point it just shows you have a really weak point. You see this is an easy debate to win when you are on the right side as I am. No team is drafting an 8.5 player to replace an 8 level player. Trying to use this weak example shows you clearly are attempting to set an incorrect narrative to try to win a point.
You see your logic fails because in order to argue your position you need to put assumed grades on not just the players on the roster but also on the players entering the draft.

Here is what everyone but you seem to have figured out. Pitts (and I dont even want him) is considered the highest rated TE to come out in decades while also being seen as a guy who can change the way offenses play. Will he be? Heck I don't know. What I do know is almost everyone who is paid to weigh in are in agreement. Sewell is considered one of the top OL to come out in years also.
So in the event the top rated defensive player (Surtain) is gone which could be very likely what do you do? If he is still available and Pitts and Sewell are available what do you do?
Neither Pitts nor Sewell would be 8.5 guys replacing 8.0 guys. This is why your position is so weak. You know this yet you had to use this example to make your point which only shows you don't actually have a point worth making.
 
75boyz

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Techsass said:
We have to do something for the defensive side. Actually we need to do more than is realistically probable in just 1 draft.

I'm having a hard time accepting that there aren't any elite defensive players in this draft. Since I don't watch college, I could be totally mistaken on that. If there aren't any elites & the D players in the 1st aren't much better than those in the 2nd, then I hope we can trade down & get a later 1st & another 2nd. I'd prefer quality over quantity, but if it isn't there I'll settle for 3 very good players. We just have to make sure they're solid long term choices.

Now if a blue chip Offensive player that we can use is there at 10, I might take the pick over the trade down. He'd have to be an All-Pro candidate type player though, not just a likely starter with a chance at a few Pro-Bowls.
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Totally agree.

Bad thing is this team sucks at drafting defense. It dates all the way back to when Parcells left.

But until the whole defensive scouting department is fired or....
An actual GM and actual HC are hired with a shared vision on defensive philosophy and player selection and scheme all marrying up you can continue to expect these same failed defensive expectations.

The last 5 drafts produced 24 defenders. Including 2 1sts and 3 2nds.

Whether performance, health or both, none of those 1sts/2nds are/were difference makers. If they're even on the team, lol. Maybe Hill gets a TBD but that's it.

Like I said, it's a fundamental disconnect between the scouting, player, scheme and coaching/development of said player.

There's something missing on defensive selections.

There just is. And it's been missing for a long time. Regardless of Coach/Coordinator.

My .02.
 
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