CFZ How Would Jimmy Johnson Handle the Cowboys Salary Cap in the 90's?

FuzzyLumpkins · Jun 14, 2022

plasticman said:
He did not cut them to make a point. He cut them because others on the team were better. That's the point.

Another big point was that he wasn't afraid to admit he made a mistake rather than pretend and keep an inferior player. All teams and evaluators make mistakes. The coaches and GM's that quickly come to that conclusion, immediately rectify it and then move on have the best chance to succeed.

Evaluating is more than assessing a player's abilities from their college results and physical measurements. The evaluation really doesn't end until the regular season begins and actually continues after that in a way. Jimmy Johjnson will be the first to admit mistakes and that is why the Herschel trade was so important. Not only did the Cowboys have the ability to look at more players, they suffered less when that player was released.

The best example of this philosophy in action is Bill Belicek who would consistently trade to get future high draft picks and then trade them as well. He built his teams on multiple 2nd and 3rd round picks every year to get very good players while staying away from future cap issues.

And by other players on the team being better, it means he busted those top 100 picks. You can talk about headspace ideas like philosophy if you like but when you are cutting top 100 players before their rookie contracts then you failed as a personnel evaluator.

Essentially what you are laying out is that Jimmy needed all those extra picks to succeed because he was not a good talent evaluator.

Chuck 54 · Jun 14, 2022

Very poorly. Jimmy wasn’t about numbers or money. He would likely have struggled back then if there had been a salary cap. Jimmy did not coach. He selected players in the draft, free agency, and trades that created what he wanted. Top defense; best OL; best RB; among the best QB and WR, and extreme depth in both lines. Some of his backup QBs were making starter money. He was a genius at pushing guys buttons, but he still struggled until he found the right OC and added Haley to the great defense.

Imagine the team record when Aikman was out if there was a salary cap and we hadn’t had Kozar and Berline. The depth on the OL and DL was insane. Besides his gift in the psychology department, Jimmy won because he had better players than even the Buffalo Bills. If there had been a salary cap or a cheap owner, it would have been a struggle. That’s the whole point of the salary cap; it was just a couple years ago we thought KC was the new super dynasty that might win 3-4 SBs in a row.

plasticman · Jun 14, 2022

FuzzyLumpkins said:
And by other players on the team being better, it means he busted those top 100 picks. You can talk about headspace ideas like philosophy if you like but when you are cutting top 100 players before their rookie contracts then you failed as a personnel evaluator.

Essentially what you are laying out is that Jimmy needed all those extra picks to succeed because he was not a good talent evaluator.

His failure looked like three Super Bowls in a four year span. Give me that kind of failure every day.

FuzzyLumpkins · Jun 14, 2022

plasticman said:
His failure looked like three Super Bowls in a four year span. Give me that kind of failure every day.

I took it with pleasure but understand we'll never get a Herschel Walker trade again for him to repeat it. Miami learned it the hard way. It also explains why he was obviously and highly insecure about other's taking credit for player evaluation.

jrumann59 · Jun 14, 2022

BAT said:
No one at time would even think of trading away their best player in their prime.

That's why Walker trade was known as Great Train Robbery, people around NFL thought Jimmy and Jerry got robbed.

This was not luck, this was strategy.

Strategy or not to come away with many of those picks being pro bowl level players is absolutely insane. I would bet they were expecting to hit on 50% when they actually hit on closer to 70%

BAT · Jun 17, 2022

jazzcat22 said:
When plan B started, I wanted Dallas to get Novacek when I seen he was available. I thought he and Rob Awalt were very good TE's. Dallas got both, but Awalt's back was an issue.
It wasn't like Novacek was a bum and Jimmy turned him around.

Nate Newton said...we were a bunch of bums (though they weren't, they were decent) until Emmitt got here. He made us. Oh, and Jimmy did LUCK into getting Emmitt.
Also the offense was mediocre but looked ok. Under Shula. But it took off when Norv Turner was brought in. Turned out to be a great move by Jimmy. But at the time no one knew he was going to be as good as he was.
He was a WR coach I believe under Ernie Zampese when Jimmy brought him in.

Jimmy was great, but he he was not a god.

LOL

No one said Jimmy was a god, stop with the ridiculous exaggeration because you can't support your stance.

BAT · Jun 17, 2022

LOL

Only Mike was not Jimmy's pick, but Mike was Jimmy's guy from Miami Hurricanes and his most ardent supporter, so stop with that inanity.

And Jimmy didn't cut Jimmy Smith, that happened in 1994 after Jimmy already gone from the team.

No one disputes Jimmy's uncanny eye in finding and/or developing defensive talent. That was not luck.

https://www.nfl.com/videos/a-football-life-jimmy-johnson-had-an-eye-for-draft-talent-284344

But Jimmy also drafted these future pro bowlers on offense in the 5 years he was Cowboys HC:

Troy Aikman
Emmitt Smith
Moose Johnston
Mark Stepnoski
Erik Williams
Jimmy Smith

Jimmy Johnson drafted 15 pro bowlers in 5 seasons, that's an average of 3 per draft.

That is a ridiculous hit rate and any Cowboys fan who who devalues Jimmy's contributions by using pissant excuse of luck has zero clue how NFL works, identify and develop pro bowl talent then take that talent to not just win it all, but win it all multiple times and win it all multiple times with absolute dominance and intimidation.

https://www.si.com/nfl/talkoffame/nfl/state-your-case-jimmy-johnson

FuzzyLumpkins said:
Yup and Irvin was picked by Landry, Schramm was fired after Aikman's draft and Jimmy famously got Walsh that supplemental draft. You have to give him credit for Smith but he wanted the LB Francis and was okay with the board and selecting Smith when he was gone.

Jimmy cut Smith for Fleming and Davis. It's not like the WR room was overflowing with talent after K-Mart then Harper left. That is when he cut Smith.

What he could do was draft OL. Stepnoski and Big E stand front and center.

But really Jimmy's hit rate was not good on offense and when he was given complete control in Miami it was a fiasco. He busted 1sts on Yatil, Avery, and Johnson in a row.

FuzzyLumpkins · Jun 17, 2022

BAT said:
LOL

Only Mike was not Jimmy's pick, but Mike was Jimmy's guy from Miami Hurricanes and his most ardent supporter, so stop with that inanity.

And Jimmy didn't cut Jimmy Smith, that happened in 1994 after Jimmy already gone from the team.

No one disputes Jimmy's uncanny eye in finding and/or developing defensive talent. That was not luck.

https://www.nfl.com/videos/a-football-life-jimmy-johnson-had-an-eye-for-draft-talent-284344

But Jimmy also drafted the future pro bowlers on offense in the 5 years he was Cowboys HC:

Troy Aikman
Emmitt Smith
Moose Johnston
Mark Stepnoski
Erik Williams
Jimmy Smith

Jimmy Johnson drafted 15 pro bowlers in 5 seasons, that's an average of 3 per draft.

Those are ridiculous numbers and any Cowboys fan who who devalues Jimmy's contributions by using pissant excuse of luck has zero clue how NFL works and how hard it is win and win in that dominant fashion.

https://www.si.com/nfl/talkoffame/nfl/state-your-case-jimmy-johnson

Someone's emotional.

I get that it is important to you that no one devalue Jimmy's image but that is inconsequential to finding the truth. I've discussed most everything you regurgitated here and you ignored it to repeat yourself.

Relax man. Jimmy was not perfect. He busted a whole lot of draft picks. That doesn't mean I don't think he was one of the greatest coaches we've ever had in Dallas or that he doesn't merit the HoF.

BAT · Jun 17, 2022

No one saying Jimmy was perfect genius.

Absolutely NO ONE.

Stop with this narrative.

I've disputed every one of your so called arguments.

FuzzyLumpkins said:
Someone's emotional.

I get that it is important to you that no one devalue Jimmy's image but that is inconsequential to finding the truth. I've discussed most everything you regurgitated here and you ignored it to repeat yourself.

Relax man. Jimmy was not perfect. He busted a whole lot of draft picks. That doesn't mean I don't think he was one of the greatest coaches we've ever had in Dallas or that he doesn't merit the HoF.

BAT · Jun 17, 2022

Ranched said:
Jimmy wouldn't being he was never the GM for the Dallas Cowboys franchise nor any other. Not up to head coaches anyway.

“I was the personnel director there with the Cowboys,” Johnson said. “My pride was collecting the talent and putting together the team that won the Super Bowls.”

Herschel Walker trade was all Jimmy.

So was the Charles Haley trade.

Ditto for Steve Walsh trade.

Thomas Everett, Tony Casillas, Steve Beurlein, Bernie Kosar, Ray Horton, James Washington, etc. were all Jimmy acquisitions.

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1993/01/25/Casillas-gets-unexpected-chance/2666727938000/

51 total trades in 5 seasons. Completely unheard of at the time, still a ridiculous amount today.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/07/jimmy-johnson-calls-jerry-jones-g-m-claims-a-crock/

FuzzyLumpkins · Jun 17, 2022

BAT said:
No one saying Jimmy was perfect genius.

Absolutely NO ONE.

Stop with this narrative.

I've disputed every one of your so called arguments.

Claiming victory with an assertion.

You were complaining about how people were impinging Johnson with pissant excuses. It is what it is.

Speaking of strawman. I have to say that distilling everything I wrote down into "luck" is both a gross oversimplification and plain wrong. I have stated repeatedly that Johnson, pick for pick, did not have good efficiency with his draft picks. That is not a claim of luck.

What you did argue was mindlessly list his offensive draft successes again in a list. Just like you did yesterday.

We can pretend like I didn't specifically discuss the OL, Emmitt, Jimmy, or the rest. Or that you did anything more than repeat yourself if it makes you feel better.

Then of course is the denominator. He averaged 5 top 100 picks every year alone. He drafted like NE does with it.

Jimmy leveraged a market inefficiency, reaped major rewards, and built a dynasty. Kudos to him.

FuzzyLumpkins · Jun 17, 2022

BAT said:
“I was the personnel director there with the Cowboys,” Johnson said. “My pride was collecting the talent and putting together the team that won the Super Bowls.”

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/07/jimmy-johnson-calls-jerry-jones-g-m-claims-a-crock/

Johnson is very insecure about credit. I think it's funny that their entire feud stemmed from the Everett trade. Jimmy didn't want to give him any credit at all and went out of his way to smear him to anyone who would listen.

At the end of the day Jones was friends with Beathard who was the GM of the Chargers. The two of them brokered the deal with the Rooney's. It is what it is. Johnson couldn't handle it.

It's so glaringly obvious that for Johnson this is about his ego and little else.

BAT · Jun 17, 2022

jrumann59 said:
I love Jimmy but without the Walker trade I think Dallas never sniffs the SB, they were able to leverage so much talent from the picks they got that they were drafting high in rounds due to how hamstrung Minny was and NO was due to the walsh trade. Sorry to say if the Walker trade didn't happen Jimmy would have been ridden out on a rail by year 3.

Jimmy Johnson was more than just the Walker trade son. And the Walker trade was not luck but strategy. Jimmy made more trades in his 5 seasons than practically all the other NFL teams combined in same time period.

He averaged 10 trades, big or small, each season. Very much like Belichick now.

Jimmy helped create tools like the trade value chart because he was so aggressive moving up and down during the draft.

Jimmy also reintroduced and popularized the 4-3 but based on speed, converting LB to DE, DE to DT, CB to S and even LB to SS.

Jimmy revolutionized playing DL in waves and relentlessly attacking with fresh fast bodies and forcing takeaways.

But most importantly Jimmy created championship culture. He hated to lose and only wanted players who hated losing as much as he did.

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1989/1...-Everson-Walls-can-play-better/2995627022800/

BAT · Jun 17, 2022

Comparing Jimmy Johnson to Bill Belichick is actually very accurate.

No one cares about efficiency Einstein, only championships.

Jimmy and Belichick methodology and results speak for itself.

FuzzyLumpkins said:
Claiming victory with an assertion.

You were complaining about how people were impinging Johnson with pissant excuses. It is what it is.

Speaking of strawman. I have to say that distilling everything I wrote down into "luck" is both a gross oversimplification and plain wrong. I have stated repeatedly that Johnson, pick for pick, did not have good efficiency with his draft picks. That is not a claim of luck.

What you did argue was mindlessly list his offensive draft successes again in a list. Just like you did yesterday.

We can pretend like I didn't specifically discuss the OL, Emmitt, Jimmy, or the rest. Or that you did anything more than repeat yourself if it makes you feel better.

Then of course is the denominator. He averaged 5 top 100 picks every year alone. He drafted like NE does with it.

Jimmy leveraged a market inefficiency, reaped major rewards, and built a dynasty. Kudos to him.

FuzzyLumpkins · Jun 17, 2022

BAT said:
Jimmy Johnson was more than just the Walker trade son. And the Walker trade was not luck but strategy. Jimmy made more trades in his 5 seasons than practically all the other NFL teams combined.

He averaged 10 trades, big or small, each season. Very much like Belichick now.

Jimmy helped create tools like the trade value chart because he was so aggressive moving up and down during the draft.

Jimmy also reintroduced and popularized the 4-3 but based on speed, converting LB to DE, DE to DT, CB to S and even LB to SS.

Jimmy revolutionized playing DL in waves and relentlessly attacking with fresh fast bodies and forcing takeaways.

But most importantly Jimmy created championship culture. He hated to lose and only wanted players who hated losing as much as he did.

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1989/1...-Everson-Walls-can-play-better/2995627022800/

Son? Sounds you ego is a little like Jimmy's.

It's more like Jimmy is your daddy the way you gush, BAT.

FuzzyLumpkins · Jun 17, 2022

BAT said:
Comparing Jimmy Johnson to Bill Belichick is actually very accurate.

No one cares about efficiency Einstein, only championships.

Jimmy and Belichick methodology and results speak for itself.

Does Belichek draft well in your opinion?

BAT · Jun 17, 2022

I finally realized I've been debating with a Jerry apologist.

You're one of those.

You are beyond help.

FuzzyLumpkins said:
Johnson is very insecure about credit. I think it's funny that their entire feud stemmed from the Everett trade. Jimmy didn't want to give him any credit at all and went out of his way to smear him to anyone who would listen.

At the end of the day Jones was friends with Beathard who was the GM of the Chargers. The two of them brokered the deal with the Rooney's. It is what it is. Johnson couldn't handle it.

It's so glaringly obvious that for Johnson this is about his ego and little else.

BAT · Jun 17, 2022

FuzzyLumpkins said:
Does Belichek draft well in your opinion?

Missing the point man.

Drafting or trading in volume via a master personnel evaluator for proven system that results in multiple championships.

The bottom line is championships, not efficiency.

FuzzyLumpkins · Jun 17, 2022

BAT said:
Missing the point man.

Drafting or trading in volume via a master personnel evaluator for proven system that results in multiple championships.

The bottom line is championships, not efficiency.

I know you would love to distill the entire argument down to this and claim victory but it's not a rational argument. I forget the name of the fallacy but it is pretty basic. Occam's razor is a means not the end.

Am I arguing that Johnson didn't earn those championships in Dallas? Nah. I am just saying that he was not a good talent evaluator. Now we have this red herring because you see the denominator too and don't want to admit it.

FuzzyLumpkins · Jun 17, 2022

BAT said:
I finally realized I've been debating with a Jerry apologist.

You're one of those.

You are beyond help.

I am stating facts. My opinion is that Jerry is an even worse talent evaluator.

I'm just not so pigheaded that I don't recognize his people skills or reject factual reporting. That was the whole thing, Jimmy kept on talking about Jerry never looked at film as if that meant the work with Beathard and Pittsburgh should be ignored.

It's kind of like what you are doing here. I have obviously bothered you. You've sideways called me a pissant, started with the "don't talk smart" thing and are now with the blanket dismissal. Everything I say is invalid because I'm a Jerry lover. . . .

Jimmy was glaringly insecure too.

CFZ How Would Jimmy Johnson Handle the Cowboys Salary Cap in the 90's?

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