The Second Call/NonCall good/bad conspiracy etc threadmerged**

gimmesix · Jan 12, 2015

percyhoward said:
And I agree that just because the field judge saw it that way, that doesn't mean he was right. But I think what happened is that the field judge saw the trip, and the replay official did not.

That trip is very easy to miss, unless you look at it from about the same angle the field judge had. And even then, if you've already decided that it's all about whether he maintained control throughout, then you're just watching the ball, and not looking for the trip anyway.

Fair enough.

It still looks to me like he was falling throughout after leaping over Shields for the catch. He comes down and immediately is going down, never establishing that he is fully in control after his leap. For me, what I watched is if he ever showed that he was not falling and I didn't see it. I consider the trip/contact incidental since Dez already appeared to be stumbling as he came down with the ball. I do see the lunge, though, as he is going down.

gimmesix · Jan 12, 2015

JoeBoBBY said:
In that pic. Right about at that point, Dez sees the endzone, switches the freaking ball into another hand and start to attempt a leap twoards the endzone....

how many football moves need to be proven?

Based on Dez's reaction, I think he would agree with you that that's what he did.

JoeBoBBY · Jan 12, 2015

gimmesix said:
Based on Dez's reaction, I think he would agree with you that that's what he did.

lol..

here i am yelling at this ref for "Mind reading" and I am doing the same thing,.

But d*mn it, I know I am right!!!

I will say this. I bet any other replay official in the league doesn't over turn that play. Its pure speculation on my part. But this is the guy who called this BS on CJ too.. I know there have been others called this way too.....I guess. I haven't done the research yet...

But that was catch. that was a catch, man!!!

Kevinicus · Jan 12, 2015

gimmesix said:
At what point had he established that he wasn't falling before he went to the ground? I don't see that point.

How does one "establish" that they're not falling? Unless you assume his legs were just going to buckle, I think it's clear.

gimmesix · Jan 12, 2015

JoeBoBBY said:
lol..

here i am yelling at this ref for "Mind reading" and I am doing the same thing,.

But d*mn it, I know I am right!!!

I will say this. I bet any other replay official in the league doesn't over turn that play. Its pure speculation on my part. But this is the guy who called this BS on CJ too.. I know there have been others called this way too.....I guess. I haven't done the research yet...

But that was catch. that was a catch, man!!!

I think it's 50/50 due to the subjective nature of the call. As others have pointed out, it depends on what the official is looking at.

If you're like me and you're primarily looking at Dez falling from the moment he came down and then the ball coming out as he goes to the ground, you're going to lean toward overturning the play (although I would have found insufficient evidence for that).

If you're like percy and others (possibly the back judge), you're going to see Dez coming down with the ball and then tripping over the defender as he tried to scored. That's down by contact at the 1.

If you're like xwalker and others, you're going to see Dez lunging for the goal line as he's going to the ground. That's a "football move," which also means Dallas' ball at the 1.

The only interpretations I cannot see is any that does not have the ball hitting the ground and then coming out. I think the evidence established that that happened whether it was the ground that caused the ball to move or Dez's shoulder pads.

It was a multifaceted play that had many possible interpretations. It's just too bad for us that the replay official chose that one.

gimmesix · Jan 12, 2015

ChldsPlay said:
How does one "establish" that they're not falling? Unless you assume his legs were just going to buckle, I think it's clear.

That's part of the problem with the rule IMO. My view is that his entire momentum on the play when Dez came down showed him to be stumbling/falling forward, not coming down, starting to run with the ball and tripping, Your view, along with others', is that he came down in control and was moving toward the end zone before tripping and falling, or that he stumbled when he came down but lunged toward the end zone. My view isn't a football move, while the other views are. Determining which happened is open to interpretation, and I don't care for rules that leave too much room for interpretation.

percyhoward · Jan 12, 2015

gimmesix said:
Fair enough.

It still looks to me like he was falling throughout after leaping over Shields for the catch. He comes down and immediately is going down, never establishing that he is fully in control after his leap. For me, what I watched is if he ever showed that he was not falling and I didn't see it. I consider the trip/contact incidental since Dez already appeared to be stumbling as he came down with the ball. I do see the lunge, though, as he is going down.

He took two steps before he was ever contacted, and this is probably what the field judge saw.

Look at the field judge's angle (in vid below). Here's how you know he was tripped: His left foot is the first to come down (1st step). Then he takes a full stride with his right leg (2nd step). Notice the huge difference between that stride, and the next one he takes (3rd step). This is when the trip happens. Instead of taking a full stride and the foot going down heel-to-toe, it's only less than half a stride and the foot comes down toe-first.

There is nothing that would cause such a violent change in his stride, short of being contacted.

But these two views clearly show the trip anyway. Shield's left calf hits Dez's right shin so hard it jars his leg and completely takes it out from under him.

https://vine.co/v/ODmuz2Zv16Y/embed/simple

Field Judge's Angle
https://v.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/FB70...p4?versionId=XuV0EEjvHGifwmb82nqeu1enN645viLI

gimmesix · Jan 12, 2015

percyhoward said:
He took two steps before he was ever contacted, and this is probably what the field judge saw.

Look at the field judge's angle (in vid below). Here's how you know he was tripped: His left foot is the first to come down (1st step). Then he takes a full stride with his right leg (2nd step). Notice the huge difference between that stride, and the next one he takes (3rd step). This is when the trip happens. Instead of taking a full stride and the foot going down heel-to-toe, it's only less than half a stride and the foot comes down toe-first.

There is nothing that would cause such a violent change in his stride, short of being contacted.

But these two views clearly show the trip anyway. Shield's left calf hits Dez's right shin so hard it jars his leg and completely takes it out from under him.

https://vine.co/v/ODmuz2Zv16Y/embed/simple

Field Judge's Angle
https://v.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/FB70...p4?versionId=XuV0EEjvHGifwmb82nqeu1enN645viLI

What I see there is Dez catching the ball, stumbling forward when he comes down then falling over Shields. There's never an instance where I can tell that Dez is fully in control of his body because he's immediately falling forward, whether that's because he's about to try to dive into the end zone or because he's off-balance, I can't tell.

I'm trying to be as objectively honest about this as I can. I can see the debates on him lunging, because he certainly appears to push off from the field as he's going to the ground. I cannot say with any degree of certainty, though, that he wasn't falling forward from his first step when he came down with the ball. The contact with Shields appears to keep him from ever getting his balance.

Frozen700 · Jan 12, 2015

Idgit said:
'Don't put yourselves in a position where a referee's call can cost you the game.' It's good advice. We should expect a team that understands and honors that. To their credit, with the exception of Dez (and I don't blame Dez for it), that's pretty much exactly what we did.
I really hope we don't end up whining half as much as Detroit did after their QB threw a ball into a defenders back last week.

Exactly....

And yes, the ball did hit the ground. Do I still think it was a catch? Yes, but it hit the ground.

All these threads, why don't some you all go and protest? Riot, loot, destroy property, ect ect.....

Maybe they will listen to you all then.

percyhoward · Jan 12, 2015

gimmesix said:
What I see there is Dez catching the ball, stumbling forward when he comes down then falling over Shields.There's never an instance where I can tell that Dez is fully in control of his body because he's immediately falling forward, whether that's because he's about to try to dive into the end zone or because he's off-balance, I can't tell..

Dez is definitely moving forward (toward the goal line) before the contact. But falling forward? We agree that Shields tripped him, but while I see that trip as making Dez lose his balance, you see it as preventing him from ever getting his balance. I don't see Dez as being off-balance in those first two steps. I see momentum carrying him toward the end zone, but obviously that doesn't effect one's balance.

I guess I'm saying there's no reason to assume a vertical leap would make a player lose his balance, much less this particular player.

mmohican29 · Jan 12, 2015

At no point in the play... during, or even immediately after... does the ball hit the ground WITHOUT Dez Bryant controlling the football. The impact of his lunge to the 1 momentarily sets the ball ajar from his grip but is still gathered against his shoulder pad. Dez rolls into the endzone and recollects the football and presents it to the official as a catch. The ball strikes the ground with Dez's hands securing it keeping the ball LIVE if that's how it is viewed, but never again.

It's a catch. Period.

I still think Rodgers takes the Packers down the field for the tie or win, but it is a CATCH.

blue knights · Jan 12, 2015

ohiocowboysfan25 said:
So bspn and some other media people said that Dez's best move would have been to just catch it and go to the ground and live for another down because it would have been a catch. I don't understand how it would be a catch if he just goes down but since he lunged it's not a catch. Am I missing something or is the rule just that messed up?

they may be figuring if he just cradled the ball with two hands there never would have been any contact of the ball with the ground in the first place therefore the ball never pops up for that split second after his lunge for the goal line

Miller · Jan 12, 2015

The pic in this article shows the tip of ball hitting ground as he hits

http://www.totalprosports.com/2015/01/11/dez-bryant-catch-overturned-video/

As I've stated a lot today I think he was falling vs lunging but can see the debate

MichaelWinicki · Jan 12, 2015

It's been 24 hours.

Time to move on.

gimmesix · Jan 12, 2015

percyhoward said:
Dez is definitely moving forward (toward the goal line) before the contact. But falling forward? We agree that Shields tripped him, but while I see that trip as making Dez lose his balance, you see it as preventing him from ever getting his balance. I don't see Dez as being off-balance in those first two steps. I see momentum carrying him toward the end zone, but obviously that doesn't effect one's balance.

I guess I'm saying there's no reason to assume a vertical leap would make a player lose his balance, much less this particular player.

I see him losing his balance because he had to go up and reach over the defensive back to catch the ball and try to avoid him coming back down. His landing was not clean to where he could simply reset himself before falling over the defensive back. Therefore, he was already off-balance and falling forward and tripping over Shields continued his fall.

But again, that's the problem with such an interpretive rule. One man's momentum is another's lost balance.

Irving Cowboy · Jan 12, 2015

Like Dana White tells fighters in the UFC... NEVER leave it up to the judges.

The Cowboys have no one else to blame but themselves, they lost to a one-legged QB.

Irving Cowboy · Jan 12, 2015

Video of this play is being more closely scrutinized than the Zapruder film

CT Dal Fan · Jan 12, 2015

MichaelWinicki said:
It's been 24 hours.

Time to move on.

I agree, but this didn't cost the Cowboys a game in the middle of October. It cost them a trip to the NFC title game, and there's little guarantee the Romos and Wittens, etc. on this team will ever get this close again. I felt this was their best chance to get a ring, and to have it end like this tears me up inside.

I wish the ball just fell incomplete than to have a call like this decide not just a game; but an entire season.

percyhoward · Jan 12, 2015

gimmesix said:
I see him losing his balance because he had to go up and reach over the defensive back to catch the ball and try to avoid him coming back down. His landing was not clean to where he could simply reset himself before falling over the defensive back. Therefore, he was already off-balance and falling forward and tripping over Shields continued his fall.

But again, that's the problem with such an interpretive rule. One man's momentum is another's lost balance.

I don't think it matters what we call it. Without the trip, it's less likely that Dez goes down short of the end zone (if he goes down at all), which means he'd have no reason to reach out with the ball, which makes it less likely that the ball comes loose.

MichaelWinicki · Jan 12, 2015

CT Dal Fan said:
I agree, but this didn't cost the Cowboys a game in the middle of October. It cost them a trip to the NFC title game, and there's little guarantee the Romos and Wittens, etc. on this team will ever get this close again. I felt this was their best chance to get a ring, and to have it end like this tears me up inside.

I wish the ball just fell incomplete than to have a call like this decide not just a game; but an entire season.

And you can't change it.

Grieve a little more if you need, but then move on...

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