Will this be our starting DL vs Giants

ConceptCoop · Sep 6, 2016

Sydla said:
My whole issue with the defense, the thing I've been pounding on to the point where I am now painted as a negative ninny, is that I just worry about the DEs holding up....... mostly the passing game but I also wonder about them being able to consistently set the edge.

The NFL is decided in large part on how you A) pass and B) defend the pass. We should all be concerned about our DEs. We need Lawrence 's production to hold up while taking a lot more double teams and we need a second guy to step up as the #2.

ConceptCoop · Sep 6, 2016

ActualCowboysFan said:
Quoting numbers is as objective as you can get. >>> Is the opposite of objective.

Numbers without context (and rounding up 12.5% for some reason) can be misleading, which is the opposite of objective.

Idgit · Sep 6, 2016

Hardline said:
What has Lawrence done to get himself above JAG level?
I certainly haven't seen it. What this Cowboys defensive line is is nothing more than who's the tallest midget contest.

Most JAGs don't give you 8 sacks/50-60 tackles a season, for one. Two, there was the 2014 postseason where he stepped up and delivered two sacks, a forced fumble and two fumble recoveries when it mattered most.

Like I said, he's better than JAG. He's hasn't delivered on his potential yet, but he's on track to do it this season.

casmith07 · Sep 6, 2016

MichaelWinicki said:
Agreed.

I'm really liking the DT rotation at this point.

Get a break or two at DE and this could be a nicely functioning DL overall.

We just need Tank Lawrence to stay on the field and we need Mayowa to become amazing or find another guy in free agency or the draft next year. We do that, and the defensive line could be pretty good.

Sydla · Sep 6, 2016

The only concern with Lawrence for me is how much of his success last year was due to having Hardy on the other side?

ConceptCoop · Sep 6, 2016

ActualCowboysFan said:
In terms of sacks the Giants protected starters on the DL had 6 fewer sacks than the Cowboys projected starters on the DL. That's a fact. Everything else is subjective.

They had fewer sacks because they played fewer games. You either don't know why that matters, didn't care enough to look, or are trying to mislead. And sacks aren't the only objective measure. Here's an objective statement:

In 8 games JPP had as many QB hurries as the top 2 Cowboys combined (16 games)

QB Hurries/Sacks/Games
JPP: 24/1/8
Vernon: 20/7.5/16

Lawrence: 9/8/16
Crawford: 15/5/16

Source: http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/defensive-hurries/2015/

Beast_from_East · Sep 6, 2016

Our starting DEs have to be the worst in the league, seriously.

Lucky for us that the Giants might have the worst o-line in the league.

Will be interesting to watch this matchup.

Sydla · Sep 6, 2016

Beast_from_East said:
Our starting DEs have to be the worst in the league, seriously.

Lucky for us that the Giants might have the worst o-line in the league.

Will be interesting to watch this matchup.

That's a bit overkill. We don't have the worst DEs in the league.

But I'd say we have the worst "edge" players in our division right now.

Oh_Canada · Sep 6, 2016

dfense said:
Are we talking about rolling doobies? I heard Gregory's are pretty tight.

That too.

ActualCowboysFan · Sep 6, 2016

ConceptCoop said:
They had fewer sacks because they played fewer games. You either don't know why that matters, didn't care enough to look, or are trying to mislead. And sacks aren't the only objective measure. Here's an objective statement:

In 8 games JPP had as many QB hurries as the top 2 Cowboys combined (16 games)

QB Hurries/Sacks/Games
JPP: 24/1/8
Vernon: 20/7.5/16

Lawrence: 9/8/16
Crawford: 15/5/16

Source: http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/defensive-hurries/2015/

El oh el. Crawford played with one arm. Apparently that means you don't know or don't care why that's important. Curious that you're devotion to context only extends to the Cowboys opponents. I literally posted the sack numbers for the Giants and Cowboys. Don't know why that got you so butthurt other than your inability to grasp the difference between objective and subjective but you do you.

Here's our conversation

Me: Cowboys DL had more sacks than the vaunted Giants.

You: That's not objective. Makes completely subjective comparison.

Me: You don't know what objective means.

You: Blah blah here's why their sack numbers don't matter.

You're sad bro. Facts shouldn't be so offensive no matter what they do to your narrative. Let's extrapolate JPP out to a full season just to maintain objectivity. Let's see 1x2= 2.

Dang. Cowboys DL still had more sacks than the Gints. Oh well so much for your context.

HoosierCowboy · Sep 6, 2016

Come on so-called fans! Give 'em a break and get behind 'em! To quote Frank Drebin: But this is our hill. And these are our beans!

iceman117 · Sep 6, 2016

its a better DL than its getting credit for... i think they will surprise people

Sydla · Sep 6, 2016

iceman117 said:
its a better DL than its getting credit for... i think they will surprise people

Maybe with Lawrence and Gregory there. But not right now.

ConceptCoop · Sep 6, 2016

ActualCowboysFan said:
El oh el. Crawford played with one arm. Apparently that means you don't know or don't care why that's important. Curious that you're devotion to context only extends to the Cowboys opponents. I literally posted the sack numbers for the Giants and Cowboys. Don't know why that got you so butthurt other than your inability to grasp the difference between objective and subjective but you do you.

Here's our conversation

Me: Cowboys DL had more sacks than the vaunted Giants.

You: That's not objective. Makes completely subjective comparison.

Me: You don't know what objective means.

You: Blah blah here's why their sack numbers don't matter.

You're sad bro. Facts shouldn't be so offensive no matter what they do to your narrative. Let's extrapolate JPP out to a full season just to maintain objectivity. Let's see 1x2= 2.

Dang. Cowboys DL still had more sacks than the Gints. Oh well so much for your context.

You used their stat totals to make a point: that they're not elite. You cherry picked a stat, ignored sample size, ignored relevent context, and added 12.5% to Lawrence's stat total for some odd reason.

But you're wrong. They are an elite unit, fit pending.

Oliver was one of the best, most impactful DEs in the league last year. Harrison was the top run defender in the league last year. JPP racked up 24 hurries in 8 games, despite his hand injury, and despite the conditioning issues. Hankins is solid.

According to PFF: (Von Miller = 91.8)

Oliver: 92.5
Harrison: 91.9
JPP: 81.1
Hankins: 77.5

That's elite, even if JPP doesn't improve over his play last season. Which seems like a silly assumption to make.

So to recap, I don't have a problem with the stat itself. I have a problem with someone using it out of context to fit an agenda.

ActualCowboysFan · Sep 6, 2016

ConceptCoop said:
You used their stat totals to make a point: that they're not elite. You cherry picked a stat, ignored sample size, ignored relevent context, and added 12.5% to Lawrence's stat total for some odd reason.

But you're wrong. They are an elite unit, fit pending.

Oliver was one of the best, most impactful DEs in the league last year. Harrison was the top run defender in the league last year. JPP racked up 24 hurries in 8 games, despite his hand injury, and despite the conditioning issues. Hankins is solid.

According to PFF:

Oliver: 92.5
Harrison: 91.9
JPP: 81.1
Hankins: 77.5

That's elite, even if JPP doesn't improve over his play last season. Which seems like a silly assumption to make.

So to recap, I don't have a problem with the stat itself. I have a problem with someone using it out of context to fit an agenda.

Why is that a silly assumption? Did he grow new fingers? And I added your context into my calculator and the results were dang near identical. Again, you're being this butthurt about statistics that conflict with your narrative is revealing. You don't even practice what you preach. You're not providing the context that Snacks played on one of the best DLs in the league at a completely different position. Oliver played with Wake and Suh. Those guys aren't going to get anymore help than they did on their old teams. And expecting players to improve their performance after their free agent paydays is a fool's errand. 3-4 run defenders successfully switching to a 4-3 is a pretty short list and you're touting him as a pass rusher, which he ain't.

ConceptCoop · Sep 6, 2016

ActualCowboysFan said:
Why is that a silly assumption? Did he grow new fingers? And I added your context into my calculator and the results were dang near identical. Again, you're being this butthurt about statistics that conflict with your narrative is revealing. You don't even practice what you preach. You're not providing the context that Snacks played on one of the best DLs in the league at a completely different position. Oliver played with Wake and Suh. Those guys aren't going to get anymore help than they did on their old teams. And expecting players to improve their performance after their free agent paydays is a fool's errand. 3-4 run defenders successfully switching to a 4-3 is a pretty short list and you're touting him as a pass rusher, which he ain't.

-JPP was out of shape last year and is in better shape now.

-Harrison is still playing NT, which is not a new position for him (not all 4-3 DTs play the same positions). I never called him a pass rusher.

-Oliver had the best DE pass rush grade in the league last season; he can afford some extra double teams and still have plenty of impact. Cameron Wake only played 7 games last year and Vernon's sack numbers went up without him.

-All 3 of them play on the same line, which means all 3 of them will have other players worthy of the defense's attention lining up next to them.

LocimusPrime · Sep 6, 2016

ConceptCoop said:
JPP was out of shape last year and is in better shape now.
Harrison is still playing NT, which is not a new position for him (not all 4-3 DTs play the same positions). I never called him a pass rusher.
Oliver had the best DE pass rush grade in the league last season; he can afford some extra double teams and still have plenty of impact. And Cameron Wake only played 7 games last year.

All 3 of them play on the same line, which means all 3 of them will have other players worthy of the defense's attention lining up next to them.

iMO the Giants have a decent d line and WR Corp. We have a good O line and rb Corp. it will be a good matchup and hopefully we can get the win! Not underestimating the Giants, they spent some money.

mattjames2010 · Sep 6, 2016

ConceptCoop said:
They had fewer sacks because they played fewer games. You either don't know why that matters, didn't care enough to look, or are trying to mislead. And sacks aren't the only objective measure. Here's an objective statement:

In 8 games JPP had as many QB hurries as the top 2 Cowboys combined (16 games)

QB Hurries/Sacks/Games
JPP: 24/1/8
Vernon: 20/7.5/16

Lawrence: 9/8/16
Crawford: 15/5/16

Source: http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/defensive-hurries/2015/

When it comes to pressures, sportingcharts IS NOT accurate. I was posting links to this a lot last year.

They did not even factor in the multiple pressures by Greg Hardy in the Panthers game. If they missed that many in one game, I question how valid that chart is now.

Daillest88 · Sep 6, 2016

There defense line will be good , our offense line is elite.

There offense line looks like it has regressed from last year. Giants offense line last year was below average so that's a plus for us. Our interior line is better than last year, our defense ends starting week one are worse, to be honest this starting dline hardly played together in preseason, we have the advantage vs the giants offense line. I still believe Irving will surprise people

ConceptCoop · Sep 6, 2016

mattjames2010 said:
When it comes to pressures, sportingcharts IS NOT accurate. I was posting links to this a lot last year.

They did not even factor in the multiple pressures by Greg Hardy in the Panthers game. If they missed that many in one game, I question how valid that chart is now.

Thanks for pointing that out. I'll keep my eye on it and take a deeper look before quoting them again.

I do trust PFF, however, and the Giants line grades out as elite. I just don't have access to their individual stats, as they require payment.

Will this be our starting DL vs Giants

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