Bitcoin. Any experts/owners?

U.S. CFTC sues three virtual currency operators for fraud

YosemiteSam said:

...and money to be lost! Ask anyone who has invested in this garbage!

It's utterly ridiculous. Go ahead! Put your money down the drain!

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I’ve invested in it and made money.

Reality said:

Did Bitcoin Just Burst? How It Compares to History's Big Bubbles
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ies-from-26-slump-as-traders-brave-volatility

...

Still, skeptics abound. Howard Wang of New York-based Convoy Investments LLC and Jeremy Grantham of GMO LLC have analyzed Bitcoin’s advance relative to past frenzies and concluded that it’s unsustainable. Grantham, who helps oversee about $74 billion as GMO’s chief investment strategist, summed up his concerns in a Jan. 3 letter to investors:

“Having no clear fundamental value and largely unregulated markets, coupled with a storyline conducive to delusions of grandeur, makes this more than anything we can find in the history books the very essence of a bubble,” he wrote

....

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I don’t understand why people think crypto doesn’t have a fundamental value. It does. The platforms they are built on especially. Anyone who understands the beautiful technology behind a coin such as Ethereum knows this.

They’re not just “lol internet coins”.

DoctorChicken said:

I’ve invested in it and made money.

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Good for you. Most lost their you know what.

A stopped clock is correct two seconds per day, yet wrong the other 86,398 seconds of the day.

I've said it several times, there is the ability to make money in anything. The question is are you willing to accept the risk levels when the risk is through the roof like it is with cryptocurrencies. You seem to think so, so you assume that risk. If you get burned, it will be your own fault.

So, have at it. I do not tolerate those types of risk levels. That type of risk will put you in the poor house quick.

DoctorChicken said:

I don’t understand why people think crypto doesn’t have a fundamental value. It does. The platforms they are built on especially. Anyone who understands the beautiful technology behind a coin such as Ethereum knows this.

They’re not just “lol internet coins”.

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Saying it has intrinsic value doesn't give it intrinsic value. Define what that REAL intrinsic value is. So far, all I've heard is people saying it has REAL value, yet cannot produce any substantial evidence that proves it. So far, all monies that have been made and lost have been 100% speculative. Speculation is dangerous. Speculation ignores the basis of what intrinsic value is/means.

YosemiteSam said:

Saying it has intrinsic value doesn't give it intrinsic value. Define what that REAL intrinsic value is. So far, all I've heard is people saying it has REAL value, yet cannot produce any substantial evidence that proves it. So far, all monies that have been made and lost have been 100% speculative. Speculation is dangerous. Speculation ignores the basis of what intrinsic value is/means.

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Bitcoin is air. Once again, it's a ponzi scheme. As soon as people stop buying, it will crash.

Wasn't the mafia using it to launder money not too long ago?

DoctorChicken said:

I don’t understand why people think crypto doesn’t have a fundamental value. It does. The platforms they are built on especially. Anyone who understands the beautiful technology behind a coin such as Ethereum knows this.

They’re not just “lol internet coins”.

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You really should go back and read the entire thread. I'm not down on crypto-currency and I have said I expect there to be a future with crypto-currency. The block-chain technology behind them is the real treasure of the crypto-currency evolution.

I have said that some crypto-currencies, like ethereum, at least have some type of tangible benefits behind them. While maybe not properly utilized yet, at least there is something there that holds potential tangible value in the future. I have also said several times that you can make money with bitcoin, but it's definitely gambling, so only do it with money you can afford to lose.

If you go back and read my earlier posts, you'll get a much better understanding.

YosemiteSam said:

Saying it has intrinsic value doesn't give it intrinsic value. Define what that REAL intrinsic value is. So far, all I've heard is people saying it has REAL value, yet cannot produce any substantial evidence that proves it. So far, all monies that have been made and lost have been 100% speculative. Speculation is dangerous. Speculation ignores the basis of what intrinsic value is/means.

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kskboys said:

Bitcoin is air. Once again, it's a ponzi scheme. As soon as people stop buying, it will crash.

Wasn't the mafia using it to launder money not too long ago?

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My personal favorite crypto isn't bitcoin, but rather coins like Ethereum. Cryptos that aren't just about currency, but rather, the platform the currency is built on, and what that platform and currency enables people to do. A decentralized money and communication system allows people to interact directly with one another through a global network. They reduce costs, remove single points of failure, prevent censorship, and ensure transparency and trust between all the parties involved in an interaction. This technology cannot be "hacked", and the funds cannot be stolen out of your pocket. Instead of focusing solely on the coin and its USD value, focus on the technology that allows these currencies to exist. That is what I personally investing in.

People were just as skeptical of the internet in its early days.

"The growth of the Internet will slow drastically, as the flaw in 'Metcalfe's law'–which states that the number of potential connections in a network is proportional to the square of the number of participants–becomes apparent: most people have nothing to say to each other! By 2005 or so, it will become clear that the Internet's impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine's."

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- Paul Krugman. One of the most famous economists alive, in the internet's early days. And many people had a similar mindset at the time - buying something online? Laughable. Why not just go to the store and buy it yourself? Why not just send a letter or call someone instead of "emailing" them? Is it safe? Won't all your money get stolen? Don't pedophiles use the internet?

Yes, these were legitimate questions and viewpoints that most in the general population had. That the internet we know and love today was just a fad. People didn't see a need for it. And we see those same exact questions about cryptocurrencies and blockchain technology today. People don't see a need for it. Yet.

Communication of information is inherently part of the human condition. Without it we would not exist. So this engenders the desire to be free of anything that imposes on our will to share, learn, grow and know more. Today's Internet doesn't get all the way there and blockchain shows promise in taking us another step toward that.

Of course, there are thousands of different coins now. Some are jokes, some are scams, some are worthless. 90% of them are. There is Dogecoin, BigBoobsCoin, TrumpCoin. Jokes, that because of specualtion, have USD value. Those will go away when the bubble "bursts". That will be the "burst"; the ending of 90%, at least, of cryptocurrencies. But there will be the 10% that succeed. The Amazons and Ebays, so to speak. The emails and AOLs. I agree with @Reality when he says there is a tangible benefit that is not being utilized in the proper way at this point in time.

We are still in the very, very early days of this technology, and it will not go away.

kskboys said:

Bitcoin is air. Once again, it's a ponzi scheme. As soon as people stop buying, it will crash.

Wasn't the mafia using it to launder money not too long ago?

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The mafia used US cash dollars to launder money not too long ago.

kskboys said:

Bitcoin is air. Once again, it's a ponzi scheme. As soon as people stop buying, it will crash.

Wasn't the mafia using it to launder money not too long ago?

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Also, ironically, US dollars are nothing more than paper with a serial number on them, the serial number being the trackable, and thus, "Value" of USD.

You can, identically, print out bitcoin on paper and it has a serial number on it and the serial number is trackable, and thus, "value".

Literally identical. Well, except for USD cant be printed and devalued at will. Cant do that with bitcoin.

YosemiteSam said:

Saying it has intrinsic value doesn't give it intrinsic value. Define what that REAL intrinsic value is. So far, all I've heard is people saying it has REAL value, yet cannot produce any substantial evidence that proves it. So far, all monies that have been made and lost have been 100% speculative. Speculation is dangerous. Speculation ignores the basis of what intrinsic value is/means.

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for a moment there, I thought you were talking about the 2000's housing market lol. No evidence, 100% speculation, fraud, manipulation, crash.

My view is still being skewed here. I'm not against emerging technologies. I'm warning people about the MASSIVE risk of losing everything you put into it.

Next, cryptocurrency and blockchain are two distinctly different technologies. They just happen to be introduced together. (cryptocurrency is wrapped around blockchain)

Without question, blockchain is a disruptive technology and has a bright future. Cryptocurrency on the other hand is absolutely not tied to blockchain's fright train future except in history books. Let me be very clear here. Blockchain does not *need* cryptocurrenies to succeed. Cryptocurrencies can die and blockchain will go on. On the other hand, cryptocurrencies like bitcoin are absolutely strapped to blockchain and depend on blockchain.

So you said cryptocurrencies aren't about currency, but about the technology it's built on. (by this, you're talking about blockchain I believe) If that is what you believe, why even invest in cryptocurrency? I mean, it's nothing more than a hanger-on to the real prize. Blockchain. I would be more looking at investing to the companies who want to monetize blockchain. Leave the worthless hanger-ons like most if not all cryptocurrencies to flounder in the puddle of their own vomit.

Finally. While cryptocurrencies have many upside attributes, it also carries some very dangerous attributes. For instance, this WSJ article: SEC Pours Cold Water on Prospect of Bitcoin ETFs The SEC basically said, there are absolutely no protections that the SEC requires to protect investors to allow ETFs to be setup. Why? Because you can be robbed blind in a myriad of ways and the SEC has no way to create and enforce protections! People are hacking digital wallets, suckering people out of their coins, outright theft of media holding coins, and outright fraud is rampant. When you trade in cryptocurrencies, you're walking on thin ice! You may not fall in on your next step, but the more you tempt fate. The more likely you will end up beneath the ice!

Doc50 said:

Enormous bubble, fad-like, backed by no tangible asset............will likely burst.

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Backed by no tangible asset.... Sounds like our current monetary system.

JBond said:

Backed by no tangible asset.... Sounds like our current monetary system.

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Actually, our currency (the dollar) is backed by the US Government. The US Government is backed by the US GDP. The GDP produces the taxes that power the Governments ability to buy and pay debts therefore fortifying the all mighty dollar.. There is a reason US Treasury Bonds are also referred to as "no risk investments". It's because there backed by the US Government's ability to cover those debts.

Bitcoin is backed by absolutely NOTHING.

It's a very common misconception. They only say it because the dollar isn't backed by gold anymore. There is a very good reason for that too. Gold was a limiting factor is the growth. Just like bitcoin's limited amount too would be come a problem at some point if it survives.

Bitcoin has officially abandoned its claims for fast transactions at low fees… for now
https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2018/01/22/bitcoin-fast-transactions-low-fees/



One of the things that got people excited about Bitcoin in the first place was its promise to deliver fast peer-to-peer transactions at a fraction of standard fees. But following its foray into the mainstream, the cryptocurrency has consistently struggled with slow transfers and excessive transaction costs.

Indeed, crypto-obsessed Redditors have long been vocal about the compendium of technical difficulties the hype around Bitcoin has caused to the network – and what it once set out to offer to its users. So much so that its developer community has decided to update the copy on its website to better reflect the technology’s key features.

Read Full Article

Actually, that's a big downside to Blockchain. The transaction overhead. (bandwidth, and transaction speed, and limitation on how quickly the ledger is/can be updated) It's not conducive to scaling up to very large transaction rates.

Its like trying to move your entire house with a van rather than a moving truck. When you scale up to a full 3 bed room house rather than a closet. The time requirements go way up.

65fastback2plus2 said:

Also, ironically, US dollars are nothing more than paper with a serial number on them, the serial number being the trackable, and thus, "Value" of USD.

You can, identically, print out bitcoin on paper and it has a serial number on it and the serial number is trackable, and thus, "value".

Literally identical. Well, except for USD cant be printed and devalued at will. Cant do that with bitcoin.

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Technically, US dollar is backed by oil via OPEC, thus the petrodollar.

Of course the more you saturate the market with paper, the more value it loses, despite the Central Banks shenanigans that can only keep it afloat for awhile.

khiladi said:

Technically, US dollar is backed by oil via OPEC, thus the petrodollar.

Of course the more you saturate the market with paper, the more value it loses, despite the Central Banks shenanigans that can only keep it afloat for awhile.

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Petrodollar is just a way for ME countries to express price of oil in USD.

There is nothing backing USD. They print it at free will.

65fastback2plus2 said:

Petrodollar is just a way for ME countries to express price of oil in USD.

There is nothing backing USD. They print it at free will.

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Petrollar is there because of Kissinger and Nixon. They needed something to back the dollar after gold was no longer viable and they went fiat.

OPEC only accepts money in dollars in agreement with the US and their oil break-even-point can’t be matched, thus the setup. And the US gives them protection and the excess dollars the OPEC countries get, they pump back into Western markets.

I agree at point 2, but there is a breaking point and why I mentioned the Central Banks. Many foreign countries own dollars and of the US doesn’t have any backing, they lose value as well and they can throw them away, leading to a massive crash. That’s why Nixon had to go fiat anyways, because the US debt and foreign countries started pulling their gold back from the States.

Petrodollar is still the backing that keeps the US dollar afloat.

US has a little more leverage now though with Shale, so they can control dollar pricing more with a lower barrel price than a couple years back.

khiladi said:

Petrollar is there because of Kissinger and Nixon. They needed something to back the dollar after gold was no longer viable and they went fiat.

OPEC only accepts money in dollars in agreement with the US and their oil break-even-point can’t be matched, thus the setup. And the US gives them protection and the excess dollars the OPEC countries get, they pump back into Western markets.

I agree at point 2, but there is a breaking point and why I mentioned the Central Banks. Many foreign countries own dollars and of the US doesn’t have any backing, they lose value as well and they can throw them away, leading to a massive crash. That’s why Nixon had to go fiat anyways, because the US debt and foreign countries started pulling their gold back from the States.

Petrodollar is still the backing that keeps the US dollar afloat.

US has a little more leverage now though with Shale, so they can control dollar pricing more with a lower barrel price than a couple years back.

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Sure, but oil in the ground in saudi arabia backs nothing off our printer. They dont have to even sell it to us. The only thing that can back fiat currency is assets in hand. Oil isnt in hand.